ST:V EndGame

Caught the final ST:Voayger ep on Sky last night......

They had the Enterprise trailer on following it, looks like Sky have it,
which does clearly show the Akira'esque NX-01 Enterprise.

SPOILER ALERT !

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I thought this was rather good. Janeway finds a possible way home when
they come across a series of wormholes in a nebula. Unfortunately there's
a large number of Borg there too....

23 years in the future Admiral Janeway has aquired the technology to
protect Voyager from the Borg so they can take this short cut home and
avoid the events that would have occured by spending a further 13 years in
space. She travels back to our time.....

..... where our Janeway discovers that what she has found in the nebula is
a Borg Transwarp hub and by destroying it can inflict real damage on the
Borg.

Janeway then is forced to revisit her decisions of 7 years earlier - should
she get her crew home or destroy this Transwarp hub using the Technology
her future self has bought ?

Nice to see a glimpse of the future, good time travel story and the scenes
with Admiral & Captain Janeway in them are good. A bit of an exploration
of would our choices be diffrent if we knew the outcome ? Admiral
Janeway's motivation is that she's seen friends get hurt and die and wants
to change things. Captain Janeway - who seems to have become more than a
little obsessed with hurting the Borg - sees an oppotunity to to get at
them, even knowing that her actions will indirectly lead to the deaths of
some of her crew.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Meanwhile several laws of time are broken...

Adam
The Chairbeing of Doom!!!

Hi,
I thought that "Endgame" was s**t. It was the same ending as
almost every ST series. They either dig up the Borg or Klingons or Jem
H'dar, then there is a bit where they try to make out someone is turning
bad. But in the end the wish spell works and the big dragon turns into a
bowl of flowers. There was nothing new what so ever in the 2 hour slot. It
was one of those plots where all side-effects were ignored and they pay for
a few more explosions.

Daniel

You'd think an admiral of all people would know better than to mess with the
timelines. "I'm going to get that crew home damnit, never mind all the
trillions of lives I may be altering in the process". I'm suprised that the
USS Relativity didn't show up and blatt her.

I thought the transphasic torpedoes were cool, but surely *using* them in
that particular timeframe gives the borg a head-start in reverse engineering
the weaponary and developing protection against it?

he
ng
Pardon me for being thicker than two thick short planks nailed together and=
dipped in milkshake, but - the end left me quite confused. How did Voyager=
end up in the Alpha Quadrant after they said they were heading back to the=
Delta Quadrant? What on Earth was that bit with the torpedo going down the=
big metally tuby thing? And how did Voyager wind up behind the Borg Sphere=
, when it was following them? Did I blink and miss something important?

Still, um - ablative armour quite seriously rocks, and it's good to see the=
Prometheus class in mass production (except that they're throwing it all a=
way now, although if Enterprise continues to steal ships from the future we=
may well see them again)

-----
"The enemy's gate is down."
-----




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borg cube opens up hole, swallows voyager up, carries on going, voyager
fires transphasic torpedoes within the cube, big boom.

Hmm... I thought it was a sphere. Even so, I wouldn't have thought Voyager =
was small enough to fit inside (in the bit where the cube passes right over=
them, it doesn't seem all that big). Oh well.

-----
"The enemy's gate is down."
-----



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is not contractual nor shall it be taken to create any legal=20
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represents the personal views of the author/sender. The
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is communicated in confidence. It is intended for the
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the express consent of the sender.

**********************************************************************

in
is
scenes
exploration
wants
=
he
the
=
ng
and=
Voyager=
the=
the=
Sphere=
The bit with the torpedos going down the tube was the bit supposed to start
a chain reaction to destroy the transwarp hub, which it appeared to do.
And it was a borg sphere that swallowed them, not a cube.

I would have thought, though, that taking longer to get home would have
been preferable - they could have placed subspace relays and set up a
stable communication link to the delta quadrant. But at least that means
it'll be much harder for them to communicate with neelix, which must be a
blessing ;o)

Love,
Lizz



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YmFjb24td29vZHJvdy5jb20=

What on Earth was that?

I'm pretty sure it wasn't Old High Gallifreyan...

Adam
The Chairbeing of Doom!!!

It's called "Lotus Notes deciding to change the character set of your e-mail
for you. isn't that nice" syndrome.

It's not done that for a good few years now with mails sent to IFIS chat. Apologies. I
am a Notes user at work.....


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Lets Have another Go at that


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[Janeway and laws of time]

Is our Janeway now locked into a cricle of events that will lead to the her
16 years in our future going back in time to make the events of Edgame
happne ?

[Borg and the Ablative Armour/Transphasic Torpedoes]

All the Borg ships that encountered the new technology were destroyed.
The Queen is having difficulty communicating with the rest of the
collective at the end of the ep - she barely maintains contact with the
Sphere pursuing Voyager. She will have had difficulty transmitting
anything she extracted from Admiral Kathy's mind on the subject.

StarFleet have the technology now - at worst it merely brings forward the
time when it will be used by the federation against the Borg, and the Borg
developing a defence.

The Borg's defence in 16 years time may well be based on some technology
that they assimilate in the meantime. By brining the tech back in time
Starfleet may now have a real drop on the borg for the forseable
future......



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Right, having endured it this evening I want to examine rather a cruicial
sequence of events. I may have got some of the timing wrong, but it doesn't
change the order of events.

(1) Voyager returns to Earth after a disgustingly long time in space.

(2) As a result of (1) Ten years later Janeway returns to a time 18 years in
the past.

(3) As a result of (2) Voyager returns to Earth 8 years early.

(4) As s result of (3), event (1) could not possibly have occurred.

(5) As s result of (4), event (2) could not... oh you can see where I'm
going with this.

This is the danger of doing plots which rely on messing about with time. You
usually end up tying yourself up in all sorts of theoretical knots.

Andy
_____________________
andy@
www.knightsofni.freeserve.co.uk
07968 357 854

Which I think results in our Janeway having to eventually go back in time and pretend
she's from that alternative future.

I was quite pleased to see someone take a slightly more casual approach to time travel
rather than the "I'm going back in time and mustn't change things variety".

As far as successfully changing the past goes I can only remember Doctor Who's Day of the
Daleks and X-Men's Days of Future Present pulling something similar to this.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

time travel
Who's Day of the
this.

Don't forget the original ST episode where McCoy goes back in time, saves
someone life, which result
in the Enterprise disappearing and the Kirk having to go back in time as
well (can't remember the name
but its the one the stone donout time travelling thing).

There were a lot of similar plots in the early series.

Daniel

We've lost the spoilers..... Anyone still reading who hasn't seen Endgame
?

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to
City on the Edge of Forever, by Harland Ellison, with plenty of rewriting by
all and sundry.....

It's the one with Joan Collins in, and is one of the best of the lot.

Here the aproach is "What has happened to me already is right so I must go
back in time to make sure it happens like we remember"

ST: Voyager went for "What has happened to me is wrong so I must go back in
time to make sure it doesn't happen like that"

Couple of ways of thinking about this aproach:

If you imagine time is a piece of string in a straight line, theres a huge
loop in the string where Janeway brings Voyager the long way home, 7 dies,
Tuvok goes head of Tescos, and Chakotay dies of a broken heart, J then
comes back to our time and the loop comes back to where the string is
running in a straight line (the proper history) and Janeway takes the route
home through the nebula.

Alternative is, as I said yesterday, our Janeway is now fixed in a pattern
where she must travel back in time X years in the future, pretend she's from
an alternate timeline, and force the events to happen.

These 2 I can cope with.

What's harder is ideas like Kirk's glasses that were given to him by McCoy
(STII) going back in time with him (STIV) and being sold to an antique
dealer where eventually by taking the convential route through time they're
given by McCoy to Kirk.

Or something less tangiable: Mr Scott knows how to make transparent
alluminium. He needs it for the whale tank in the past (STIV again, got
the DVD this week so it's fresh in my mind) so teaches the man at the glass
plant how to make it. The man of the glass plant is then credited with
inventing the stuff that Scotty learns to make in the 23rd (?) Century.

And then we have the throwaway HHGttG line about the accident with the
contraceptive and the time machine. You go back in time and father one of
your ancestors (for a change we won't kill him ;-) ) They've inherited some
of your DNA which is passed down to you. At what point is the DNA created
? (I suppose the illustration works best with a direct male line, and the Y
chromosone being passed male to male)

All 3 of these appear to feature something - an object, an idea and DNA - in
a loop. They only exist because you brought them there. (See also B4,
Sinclair & Valen)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

to
by
om
Y
in
There is a theory of time travel that avoids such inexplicable loops, which=
states that whenever you travel in time, you arrive at an identical parall=
el universe, which can then be changed at your leisure. This means that you=
can get something 'from nowhere' because really It Came From Another Unive=
rse; you can also go back in time and not worry about killing or meeting or=
fathering yourself, because the future you create will not be the one you =
came from. This theory would also explain Janeway's trip into the past, but=
it's not a very exciting one.

Star Trek: Voyager has never ever worried about the effects of time travel =
anyway. They made it clear that they couldn't be arsed to work out all the =
temporal logic right back in the second episode "Parallax". I quite like th=
is light-hearted approach - that time travel is so complicated that often t=
he act of trying not to damage the timeline does so anyway, so they just go=
with the flow.

In any case, Star Trek has always mixed up the various forms of time travel=
- there's also the deterministic kind, where you can go back in time, but =
nothing you do will prevent events from occurring as you know they will (wh=
ich also makes it impossible for you to meet yourself or kill your grandpar=
ents); I think this was used in NextGen, "Time's Arrow".

-----
"The enemy's gate is down."
-----


**********************************************************************
This e-mail:

is not contractual nor shall it be taken to create any legal=20
relations, contractual or otherwise.

represents the personal views of the author/sender. The
author/sender has no authority or delegation to bind ES=20
by this e-mail and the ES accepts no responsibility=20
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is communicated in confidence. It is intended for the
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**********************************************************************

Think yourselves lucky. It could easily have been
"Jar Jar's adventures in Clone Land"!

Cheers,

Paul

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

I think my 3 year old neice would quite like something with that sort of
title.

However please remember "Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure"

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Luckily my memory doesn't serve me that well. I only remember the
disappointment after watching it.

Andy
_____________________
andy@
www.knightsofni.freeserve.co.uk
07968 357 854

--- Philip Ayres <payres@> wrote:
If you want an excellent book that explores the
concept of changing the past to avoid events in the
future then I recommend Timescape by Gregory Benford.

Does the IFIS library have a copy ?

If not then can recommend a certain bookshop in
Staines to purchase it from ;)

Cheers,

Paul




____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

Paul Ilsley wrote:
Benford, Gregory : Timescape

... so the answer is "yes, allegedly".
Does IFIS get any kind of club discount? :-)

---

Nick Waterman. Senior Systems Administrator, SO-NET, Sony UK
mailto:nick-sig@ http://www.nilex.co.uk/~nick/
AX25:G7RZQ@#32.GBR.EU #include <stddisclaimer> Team *AMIGA*!
9 out of 10 Rottweilers prefer Jehovah's Witnesses.

--- Nick Waterman <nick-sony@>
If IFIS are buying a load of new books for the library
then me know and 'll see what Jenny can sort out.

Cheers,

Paul

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