AGM

Do we have a list of people standing for the various committee positions this week ? I
can't come and would like to exercise my proxy vote but with no list of victims available
that'll be a bit hard ....

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Philip Ayres wrote:
I have a list of a lot of people who HAVE BEEN NOMINATED, but of course
anyone else is welcome to nominate themselves in the meantime, so the
list wouldn't ever be up-to-date... unless someone draws an artificial
deadline of when to stop nominations or something...

anyway, in a move completely contrary to their recent "get the local
community involved with societies" stance, the SU have decided that only
current students are allowed to stand for positions, OR TO VOTE... Yes,
we payed our SU life membership, and the one remaining reason to have it
has now vanished. We don't need it to join societies, it doesn't let us
hold committee positions if we wanted to, and now it doesn't even
entitle us to vote at society AGMs. Remind me what it was for again?

Probably won't make much difference to the outcome of the elections
anyway, but it's still a bit nasty of 'em.

---

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I have to say I agree. Alright i'm not an ex-student, but i will be
in about a year and i certainly intend to keep in touch with IFIS.

I am pissed off wiv the Union and the Government for doing this.

Adam

Gotta say, as much as I've complained about older IFIS members
having too much influence over the current society, I have A LOT of
sympathy with this particualr sitaution.

What's the point of working as hard as IFIS has to maintain its
links to a clearly glorious past if this effort is not going to be
supported by the central SU?


Jon

"I like it here; all these people running around like Happy Meals with legs!"

I
available
Any chance we could see such a list ?
When did this happen ?

I'll go with current students on the committee - think we've explored this one previously
;-) - but I'm not sure I'm happy having my vote removed. Especially mid way through a
year when I paid my subs (Chris - you *did* pay my subs didn't you ?) and the right was in
place at the start of the year.
Bring back the good old days..... "I nominate the OHP....."

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

That has actually been put into the su constitution
because it was in the 1994 education act so if anyones
wanting to flame people its the governtment they
should be flaming. Sorry to get on my high horse and
rant but I just thought I should set the story
straight.

Bye for now,
Alex

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Nice of them to keep up. And indeed to disseminate this information to us in a timely
manner.

So is every IFIS vote since 94 Null and void due to being illegal ? ;-)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

...and if so should we hold elections for previous years as well to make
sure all is legal and above board? :-)

Andy
_____________________
andy@
www.knightsofni.freeserve.co.uk
07968 357 854

Ah but there were Life Members, Non students and people who are now ex students in
positions of power then. We obviously couldn't re-elect any of them. By doing so we
would create a rift in the space time continuim and destroy the fabric of space as we know
it. But we must hold the elections since they weren't legal. Nice one SU you've forced
us to destroy reality as we know it.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, [iso-8859-1] Alex Whincup wrote:
Admittedly I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack, but I've just read the
act[1] and can't see anywhere that says that only students are allowed to vote
at society AGMs. It goes on about major union offices, but we knew about
not being able to vote on them already.

[1] http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1994/Ukpga_19940030_en_3.htm

vote
Absolutely. It does go on at great length about union offices and
representatives and the like, but it does not even attempt to say how things
should be run at a club level (and nor should it).

This may be a futile gesture, but would it be an idea to sort out some sort
of official protest? It needn't be much, just a short (non-abusive) email to
the SU via a member of the current commitee to register our displeasure, and
requesting a full and formal explanation of why ex members, especially those
with life membership have been denied a say in the running of a society they
are still active in. These could then be printed out and handed to the SU
representative prior to the election. Any takers?

Andy
_____________________
andy@
www.knightsofni.freeserve.co.uk
07968 357 854


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things
sort
to
and
those
they
Yup. And a minuted note that such a request has been made.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Andrew Wren wrote:
[snip]
The vast majority of the act seems to be talking about teacher-training.
Those (breif) bits that talk about Students Unions basically say:

1994 EDUCATION ACT (Part II - the SU part) IN A NUTSHELL:

SUs should have a written constitution, reviewed every 5 years max, and
a code of practice. Students shouldn't be forced to join or
disadvantaged if they choose not to. MAJOR UNION OFFICES need
properly-run secret ballot voting, and nobody should be allowed to hold
a paid position for more than 2 years. You shouldn't fiddle your
accounts, you should publish them. You're allowed to donate loads of
your money to external organisations as long as you publish the fact.
[One thing for IFIS to remember:] THEORICS SHOULD BE ALLOCATED FAIRLY by
a published procedure. The SU can affiliate to external organisations as
long as it publishes all details and payments, and regularly reviews the
affiliations. There should be a proper complaint procedure [SHOULD WE
USE IT?].

As has been said, this act seems to say nothing about non-student SU
life members voting in society elections, or even holding committee
positions, as long as the main purpose ofd the SU is still to serve the
students.
There's going to be "a representative from the SU Elections Committee
sitting in on the AGM" - could they start by explaining the relevence of
this act, and why ex-student SU-life-members and
fully-paid-up-society-members aren't allowed to vote on the future of
the societies they care so much about? Oh-so-very-recently the SU were
trying their hardest to promote the involvement of the local community
with the societies, something IFIS has always been fairly good at, and
now they appear to have U-turned based on an act that doesn't even seem
to be relevent. The act even states that IFIS (as a part of the SU)
could make payment to, and register affiliations with external
organisations as long as it published the fact. It certainly says
nothing about denying voting rights to those people who have cared
enough to maintain active links, help, support, and services for the
last decade or so.
Make it clear we're talking about life membership OF THE SU here, not of
IFIS, as such a thing isn't allowed to exist any more. As far as I can
tell, my SU life membership is of no use to me at all now. I don't need
it to join IFIS every year, I don't need it to watch IFIS films, I don't
need it to use the IFIS library, I don't need it to provide IFIS with
web pages, mailing-lists, etc etc, and I can't use it to vote in IFIS
AGMs. To be honest, it feels almost ungrateful of the SU to accept my
support but give me nothing in exchange. Fobbing us off with the
non-excuse of an irrelevent education act doesn't help.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not having a go at IFIS committee here, just the SU.
Also note that ex-members aren't, and never have, tried to "take
control" of the society in any way, but we do like to feel like we have
a say! :-)

---

Nick Waterman.IFIS Information superhypewayman
mailto:nick-sig@ http://www.nilex.co.uk/~nick/
AX25:G7RZQ@#32.GBR.EU #include <stddisclaimer> Team *AMIGA*!
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How about something like this:

Dear Union Type,

We were most shocked and surprised to hear that the Union has had to change its
policies relating to the election of society committees in line with the 1994
Education Act, preventing ex-students who have paid for Life Membership of the
SU from voting. We have looked at the legislation, and it appears to us that
the only major union offices seem to be covered by this legislation:

22. - (2)(d) appointment to major union offices should be by election in a
secret ballot in which all members are entitled to vote;

As our society benefits greatly from the contributions and experience of these
long-term members, we should like an explanation of why this legislation should
affect the society's internal elections.

Thank you for your time and effort in clarifying this matter for us

Yours etc.


And while we're at it, I'd be interested to see what they have for this... :
(i) the procedure for allocating resources to groups or clubs should be fair and
should be set down in writing and freely accessible to all students;

As for committee positions, I believe that the society's constitution must
specify whether committee positions are compulsory (i.e. they must have these
positions in order to continue, usually Chairbeing, Secretary and Treasurer) or
optional, and if they are compulsory, they must be filled by current students,
but if they are optional, then there is no restriction on who can stand.

Love,
Lizz




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elizabeth.raikes@ wrote:
Note that this is also the one and only reference to the word "club",
therefore, I would suspect, the one and only part of the act at all
relevent to IFIS. They've shown they're quite capable of using the word
"club" when they mean it, so *IF* they meant any of the rest of the act
to include clubs, they really WOULD have said so. This isn't the kind of
thing that might have been a mistake, either - it usually takes an awful
lot of review, analysis, consideration, and criticism to get an act
through parliament.

That said, even if the WHOLE ACT applied to IFIS rather than just the
SU, then we'd need secret ballots for the voting, but as far as I can
tell non-students could still vote as long as the society MAINLY
represented the students (something which has never been a problem in
ANY AGM that I recall - and remember it's "traditionally" been me doing
the counting for about half the society's history)
This used to be the difference between the "exec" (what you've called
"compulsory positions" and "non-exec" ("optional"). Apparently even THAT
is no longer correct, and all committee positions, exec or non-exec,
must be current students. IFIS has "got around this" by voting in core
committee, and having a number of non-voted co-opted "honourary
positions" which aren't committee positions at all, just a silly title
within the society or whatever.

Phil said:
I'd like to point out that Kathryn Jane Waterman (age 9 weeks) has been
nominated for almost every society position imaginable. It's clear that
she wouldn't be allowed any real COMMITTEE (exec or non-exec) positions,
even with an "assistant" doing all the work, but hey, at least she was
nominated... :-)

---

Nick Waterman. Senior Systems Administrator, SO-NET, Sony UK
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AX25:G7RZQ@#32.GBR.EU #include <stddisclaimer> Team *AMIGA*!
Cynic, n.: One who looks through rose-colored glasses with a jaundiced
eye.

Nickwa said:
Can we put you up as the returning officer this year and see if the SU objects to that ?

I've got a day off Friday - I'm getting tempted to come down Thursday night for the
meeting...
I'd like to see her union card and hear her policy on weekly Star Fleet watching sessions
before she gets my vote ;-)

Hmmmm - so you can nominate someone even if they can't take the post up ?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Do it.

--- Philip Ayres <payres@> wrote:
You've got my vote on that one. Its a committee
nominated person and Nick falls into that category so
there shouldn't be any objections.

bye for now,
alex

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Is this just my biased interpretation or does the phrase 'all members'
include life members?

Does this mean that to exclude life members from voting would be illegal?

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The definition of a member (oo-err) in the act is this:

(7) In this section the expression "members" , in relation to a representative
body which is not an association, means those whom it is the purpose of the
union to represent, excluding any student who has exercised the right referred
to in subsection (2)(c)(ii).

which I think basically means students, as technically, the union doesn't
represent Life members.

Love,
Lizz




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Good letter, apart from:
Should be "only the".

Meanwhile - my opinion.

Actually, I'm not entirely opposed to allowing only students to vote. It's a
STUDENT society, and if ex-students wish to hang around it, that's their
affair. If they want something different, they should go away and do it.
(Note that it would be legal to form an outside society, and then affiliate
to it, you just wouldn't have a library.)
I like that one.
You want to hold them to that.
I suspect they'd be forced to say "we deliberately give IFIS a lousy theoric
because they'd only go buying books with it that we'd then have to find the
space to store."

Incidentally, just because the act was passed 6 years ago, doesn't
necessarily mean it came into force 6 years ago. There's often a delay in
these things.
There's an interesting parallel here with the University of London Union
life membership, and the ULU clubs/societies. I'm in the ULU scuba diving
club, which has something like 8 committee posts - 4 of which are student
posts, because it's a student club, and it has to follow ULU rules on
student chairman, etc. The other 4 are usually non-student posts, because
the British Sub Aqua Club regulations (the national diving organisation)
insists that the people running the club (Diving Officer, Training Officer,
etc.) be people with the experience and qualifications to do so. Strangely,
this generally means ex-students. So if this rule was applied there, the
club would collapse completely.
That's the one. I'm stunned that they removed the requirement. It meant you
could join societies, take part in their events, and meet friends INSIDE the
union building, rather than having to arrive with them and get signed in.
For a (short) while we had rules allowing you to nominate dead members, as
long as you could prove they were still capable of fulfilling the
expectations of the post.
Actually, I think lobbying is enough.

If the current crop of students wanted abandon film evenings, start drinking
in the Monkey's Forehead, and use the books to build a wendy house, we could
stand back and shout at them, we could accuse them of being bloody stupid,
and short-sighted, and ruining the society for all the future students who
would probably rather have a library than a wendy house, but we couldn't
actually stop them. And that's the way it should be.

Dominic


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Dominic said:
I'm not sure I against it either.

I *do* object to having paid money to be an SU LM and then paying again to be a registered
IFIS member with what were (at the start of the year) full voting privileges to suddenly
find that my right to vote has been removed without warning or notice. The soc is
required to give 1 academic week's notice of a GM - when was the resolution to alter this
element of the SU's constitution / rules passed ? And where can I see it ?

If the SU have been aware of this for sometime then they should either

1) Have warned us at the start of the year that we'd lose our rights,
2) Written to us mid year (they've got our addresses, they've got the soc's membership
lists so they know who's presently in membership and who's a SU LM on that list) to tell
us the right had vanished
3) Delayed it's enforcement till the beginning of the next academic year.

Under the assumption that this will be challenged tomorrow night *and* in the event of the
SU's interpretation of legislation having being proved wrong could someone post a list of
candidates to announce@ so that I can cast my proxy vote ? (too ill to
travel)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

This was put into the consitution during the summer
term last year. Copies of the complete union
constitution have been available since Mid-August from
the SU with this section included.

I would have let you all know sooner but I wasn't
aware of it till last week. Sorry!
I agree with you there but they never have bothered to
do things properly and not many life members still
join clubs and societies.

Bye for now,
alex

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"Thomas, Dominic" wrote:
Speaking as one of a large number of ex-students who have donated some
of those books, I'd appreciate having the ability to vote on it. When I
donated the books, I thought I had that right. If I'm easily outnumbered
by students who still want to build a wendy-house out of them, then fine
(in donating the books, I was obviously entrusting them to "the society"
after all) but at least I'd have been able to do a TINY bit more than
just shout at people. I was donating them into a community where I
thought my opinion counted. Now, my opinion might be listenned to, if
I'm lucky, but it doesn't actually "count" for anything.

I'm not going to go asking for my books back, I'm not going to go
demanding back-payment for domain fees, website design, email list
maintenance, and a refund of SU life membership, and I'm happy to
continue paying membership, domain fees, and giving free website design,
maintenance, and list admin, if the members are happy with it, but if my
money, services, and support are valuable to the society and the SU, it
would be good to think my opinion counts too, even if it's only 1 vote
amid, what, 100-and-something other members?

We're not trying to overthrow student voting or anything:
* Students have always easily outnumbered ex-students at AGMs anyway
(even ye olde AGMs when we had to drag enough people kicking and
screaming to the meetings to pretend we were quarate, or at least have
enough people present to form a new committee and still have people left
to vote for them)
* Many of the ex-students don't often exercise their right to vote
anyway (I can't remember the last time I used my own vote, but I think
it was at least 3 years ago and didn't alter the outcome - even so, I
like to think I CAN vote if I want to)
* It's been proved on at least 3 memorable occasions that students can
do what the hell they like, regardless of ex-student opinion, inside or
outside the remit of the constitution.
I wish the "ex students have too much power" conspiracy-theory would
stop rearing it's ugly head - it's been proved wrong many times.

Anyway, I look forward to tommorrow, where I hope the appointed SU
official will be able to explain why the SU was saying "Please try
harder to involve the local community more" only a year or so ago and is
now saying "b###er off, your opinions don't mean $#!+ to us, and we'll
mention some unrelated education act and pretend it's not our fault"...
Ah well, at least they've pointed us at the one RELEVENT part of the act
- that the SU must now be fair in allocating our theorics :-)

---

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The SU official tonight is there only to oversee the
elections and make sure that they are run properly.
This just means that they'll sit at the back as
elections take place as normal.
That's a good point and plans are being made in that
direction to ensure that we get some theoric next
year.

Bye for now,
alex

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On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, [iso-8859-1] Alex Whincup wrote:
So I take it IFIS doesn't have any theoric for next year? *8(

I heard that they've changing how it works _again_ by merging the theoric &
social, which I guess is going to make things a little better.

That kind of depends. Previously, theoric used to disappear at
the end of the year if not spent. Social was carried over.
IFIS tended to have a large social fund carried from year to
year, which we used to buffer ourselves against the
vagaries of theoric allocation.

If the change means they get to swipe the social at the end of
the year, I'd recommend making sure that you spend every last
penny this year.

On the other hand, it's years since I was Treasurer so it could
be that you've already spent your cash on StarWars Lego or
some such!

See ya,

Adam

Its undecided yet. I handed in the application form
last Friday and have a meeting with them today to
explain why we've put in what we have. They'll tell us
how much they're giving us at the beginning of next
term.
That's news to me!

Bye for now,
Alex


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They said they were thinking about it to me when I went in to do the
Gamesoc budget. I don't know if that means we get to keep the money at the
end of every year or not.....

Charlotte

On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, [iso-8859-1] Alex Whincup wrote:
Ah. I thought they were doing everyone on Wednesday.

Well I get the impression that it'll go fine, if you can prove that IFIS can
earn lots of money for itself rather than just saying "gimme! gimme!
gimme!". At least that is the impression I've got listening to RockSoc's
experience of getting money this year. They went in saying we want to spend
X and we're expecting to earn Y and the SU gave them the difference to make
Y up to X. They even manage to blag putting down a 300quid HiFi as part of
their needs *8).

I think IFIS plainly needs a 4,000 pound DVD projector.
Suddenly its ability to put on revenue-earning film shows increases
significantly.

Dominic


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Quality of RHUL equipment quite blatantly not up to scratch etc etc etc.....

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
payres@
www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Let's see -

If you want it to pay for itself in 3 years, you need to have 1 show/week,
for the 30 academic weeks in the year. That's 44.44 pounds/week revenue.

Surely you can get that for big widescreen presentations in MLT?

Admittedly, you might have to borrow the Rock Soc hifi, and it wouldn't be
surround sound (unless you enjoy spending your lives laying cable) but it's
still plausible, isn't it?

On paper, anyway?

Dominic


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On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Thomas, Dominic wrote:
Two flaws in that plan unfortunately *8(

1) Room booking in the summer term is virtually impossible cos of exams.
2) The SU and it's societies can't charge for showing films because of the
license they have.
Well the only money making scheme I've seen so far for films, is selling
snacks and drinks. But IIRC it didn't work too well, cos the drinks got
warm and the SU charged us a lot for them (can only get stuff from the SU).

Why can we only get drinks food etc from SU, Surely the MLT is College
property not Student Union property.
Admittedly if the college does not like us selling such things they brought
a commercial cash and carry price they could then insist we buy it from them
at an even more inflated price than those purchased from SU, and could they
not do that anyhow.

Roy Blewitt,
r.blewitt@

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Nick Waterman wrote:
I think the reason is that we can spend vast sums of money in the Student
Union.

Personally I'm wondering that since we've been doing it "wrong" for the past
6 years, why not continue. It's not like the SU are going to know who
voted. *8)

They are. We will have a representative from the SU Elections
Committee sitting in on the AGM

Nick Waterman <nick-sony@> wrote
It gets you into the Students Union bar! However as I
haven't been on campus for several years, this has
probably changed too.

Paul

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Paul Ilsley wrote:
[snip]
[snip]
Ah, yes, so in the unlikely event that we really wanted to visit RHUL
just to go to a noisy student bar by ourselves, WITHOUT any of our
student friends to sign us in...

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeah, right.

Most of us can afford to go somewhere quieter and closer to home, most
of us (even the bob) aren't quite such dedicated alcoholics any more, so
the only reason to visit an SU bar would be if we were going with
student friends. Under these circumstances, they could sign us in, and
the piddly door-fee will have paid for itself before you've finished
your second pint, possibly your first.

I think most of us paid for our SU life membership so we were allowed to
continue joining societies (no longer needed - "local community" and
that), sometimes standing for less-important committee positions (no
longer allowed) and voting in the AGMs (no longer allowed).

I've got work to do - I'll try to shut up now :-)

---

Nick Waterman. Senior Systems Administrator, SO-NET, Sony UK
mailto:nick-sig@ http://www.nilex.co.uk/~nick/
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IBM: Idiots Built Me

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Nick Waterman wrote:
Actually I'm not sure we can't vote. At the moment the current IFIS
constitution says we can vote. The constitution also says that all members
(including us) have the right to vote on whether a new constitution is
instigated and according to the latest "template" for society constitutions
we get to keep that right too. So what is stopping us from saying no to the
new constitution and keeping our the right for everyone to vote?

The current IFIS constitution says you are allowed to
vote but the SU constitution doesn't. The SU is our
parent body so we have to go with their constitution
if there's a discrepency between ours and theirs.
We're unlikely to change ours because that way if the
SU one is changed all ex-students will be able to vote
again straight away without us having to change our
constitution straight away. It also shows that we do
not support this change but are going along with it
because we have to.

=====
"I laugh in the face of danger...
...and then I run away and hide." - Xander

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