Voyager : SPOILERS (1999/02/10)

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by Asan Tu on 1999/02/10 01:57

Ok...

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Ok, there's an upcoming 2-hour Voyager TV movie for the US, called DARK
FRONTIER

Basic Plot goes like this:
Voyager needs to get home.
Borg have transwarp drive, which speeds them along very very quickly.
Voyager ram-raids (so to speak) a borg ship, and tries to nick their
transwarp technology.
Seven of Nine gets caught.
Seven gets re-assimilated.
THE BORG QUEEN RE-APPEARS!!!!

Right, so we know that the borg queen comes back. The question is how and
why. There is general speculation that the queen is a sorta figurehead who
gets recreated whenever she is needed. I mean, are they really gonna be
stupid enough to send one borg cube to invade earth, carrying the head of
their society?

So for conveniance, it's possible she just gets replicated here and there,
and the original is probably sitting at the center of the BORG homeworld.

Having said that, the concept of an Individual Queen being at the center of
the collective sorta goes against the idea of the entire collective
consciousness idea in the first place. I mean, a collective hive mind is
where they all decide together what happens, and then do it. Having an
Individual leading them sorta defeats the point really.

Considering earlier references in Scorpion: as to how badly the borg were
doing against the 8472 because of the loss of the queen, her re-appearance
now confuses matters further.

Comments and suggestions as to the queens role and whereabouts in the
collective anyone??

cheers
Asan

(YES I DO READ WEB PAGES TO FIND TINY BITS OF INFO :o)

==============================================
"Live for the moment... Or Live in regret..."
Asach Tu <------- IFIS chairman
elterwater@ <----- send mail here
http://www.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk/~asach <--- homepage here
0956 151 141 <------- mobile here
==============================================

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by Simon Richardson on 1999/02/10 08:28

In article <000001be5498$b2fc6480$e93b883e@>, "Asan Tu" <elterwater@> wrote:

Ok...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

A
L
L

T
H
O
S
E

P
I
C
K
Y

B
U
G
G
E
R
S

===============================================================

[plot collapses]

Considering earlier references in Scorpion: as to how badly the borg were
doing against the 8472 because of the loss of the queen, her re-appearance
now confuses matters further.

Comments and suggestions as to the queens role and whereabouts in the
collective anyone??

Sounds like a tired and overstretched analogy based on the behaviour of bees
and termites. "Let's have a lot of aliens who operate as a collective
entity, like bees. Bees have a `queen' - ergo, our aliens must have a
'queen' too."

It's lazy scriptwriting, if you want the truth. That sort of thing ceased
to be good enough in the 1950s, and only survives in SF backwaters like
"Star Trek".

Simon

---
"This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind" -Ecclesiastes 4:16

simon@ | Not affiliated to any religion
simon@ | Not affiliated to any politics
H (+44/0)1784 431998 | Not affiliated to any ideology
W (+44/0)1784 434568 (GMT/BST) | What does that make me?

"I have been asked to point out, as if you couldn't guess, that my rantings
are not the opinions of One Chip Solutions. So now you know, don't you..?"

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by Charlotte R on 1999/02/10 09:57

Ok...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

A
L
L

T
H
O
S
E

P
I
C
K
Y

B
U
G
G
E
R
S

===============================================================

[plot collapses]

Considering earlier references in Scorpion: as to how badly the borg

were

doing against the 8472 because of the loss of the queen, her

re-appearance

now confuses matters further.

Comments and suggestions as to the queens role and whereabouts in the
collective anyone??

Sounds like a tired and overstretched analogy based on the behaviour of
bees
and termites.

But the Aliens films did it well........

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by Simon Richardson on 1999/02/10 10:29

In article <40C24C464D6FD21189090000C0F06ACF43F00F@>, Ruddick C <C.Ruddick@> wrote:

Ok...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

A
L
L

T
H
O
S
E

P
I
C
K
Y

B
U
G
G
E
R
S

===============================================================

[plot collapses]

Considering earlier references in Scorpion: as to how badly the borg
were doing against the 8472 because of the loss of the queen, her
re-appearance now confuses matters further.

Comments and suggestions as to the queens role and whereabouts in the
collective anyone??

Sounds like a tired and overstretched analogy based on the behaviour of
bees and termites.

But the Aliens films did it well........

The "Aliens" films borrow the sexual structure from bees - which doesn't
seem so bad. The "Borg" stuff attempts to borrow the psychology without the
sexuality, which has a long and illustrious SF history - it has been falling
on its arse for something like fifty years now.

(And if you think this posting is obsessed with sex - talk to some
biologists. As far as most biology is concerned, animals are just
sex-machines.)

Simon

---
"This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind" -Ecclesiastes 4:16

simon@ | Not affiliated to any religion
simon@ | Not affiliated to any politics
H (+44/0)1784 431998 | Not affiliated to any ideology
W (+44/0)1784 434568 (GMT/BST) | What does that make me?

"I have been asked to point out, as if you couldn't guess, that my rantings
are not the opinions of One Chip Solutions. So now you know, don't you..?"

Voyager

Posted by Dominic T. on 1999/02/10 11:18

The "Aliens" films borrow the sexual structure from bees - which doesn't
seem so bad. The "Borg" stuff attempts to borrow the psychology without the
sexuality, which has a long and illustrious SF history - it has been falling
on its arse for something like fifty years now.

(And if you think this posting is obsessed with sex - talk to some
biologists. As far as most biology is concerned, animals are just
sex-machines.)

I thought animals evolved so that viruses could propagate?

(A friendly thought.)

Dominic.

"Forgive your enemies but never forget their names." [John F. Kennedy]

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by Chris L on 1999/02/10 15:27

===== Original Message From chat@ =====
In article <000001be5498$b2fc6480$e93b883e@>, "Asan Tu"

<elterwater@> wrote:

Ok...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

A
L
L

T
H
O
S
E

P
I
C
K
Y

B
U
G
G
E
R
S

===============================================================

[plot collapses]

Considering earlier references in Scorpion: as to how badly the borg were
doing against the 8472 because of the loss of the queen, her re-appearance
now confuses matters further.

Comments and suggestions as to the queens role and whereabouts in the
collective anyone??

Sounds like a tired and overstretched analogy based on the behaviour of bees
and termites. "Let's have a lot of aliens who operate as a collective
entity, like bees. Bees have a `queen' - ergo, our aliens must have a
'queen' too."

It's lazy scriptwriting, if you want the truth. That sort of thing ceased
to be good enough in the 1950s, and only survives in SF backwaters like
"Star Trek".

That is just a tad harsh isn't it?
Trek may not be perfect but it does have some very good episodes.
True voyager is mostly shite.

But I didn't think you'd watched more than 3 or 4 episodes of any
of the new Treks (ie since TNG began). So is that judgement based on having
only watched a couple of the dodgy eps.?

Chris
.........................................................
'Sift and slime, lemon lime,' the computer replied.
'Tap that toenail one more time'
There was nothing I could add to that so I left the bridge.

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by Simon Richardson on 1999/02/10 17:13

In article <E10AbcG-0007z5-00@>, Chris Lyth <beeblebear@> wrote:
[of the Borg]

Comments and suggestions as to the queens role and whereabouts in the
collective anyone??

Sounds like a tired and overstretched analogy based on the behaviour of bees
and termites. "Let's have a lot of aliens who operate as a collective
entity, like bees. Bees have a `queen' - ergo, our aliens must have a
'queen' too."

It's lazy scriptwriting, if you want the truth. That sort of thing ceased
to be good enough in the 1950s, and only survives in SF backwaters like
"Star Trek".

That is just a tad harsh isn't it?
Trek may not be perfect but it does have some very good episodes.
True voyager is mostly shite.

But I didn't think you'd watched more than 3 or 4 episodes of any
of the new Treks (ie since TNG began). So is that judgement based on having
only watched a couple of the dodgy eps.?

Nope, my knowledge of "the Borg" is based only on seeing "First Contact".

That's enough.

Besides, Asan pointed out the inconsistencies, not me. I assume he has seen
a few more eps.

Simon

---
"This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind" -Ecclesiastes 4:16

simon@ | Not affiliated to any religion
simon@ | Not affiliated to any politics
H (+44/0)1784 431998 | Not affiliated to any ideology
W (+44/0)1784 434568 (GMT/BST) | What does that make me?

"I have been asked to point out, as if you couldn't guess, that my rantings
are not the opinions of One Chip Solutions. So now you know, don't you..?"

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by Nick Waterman on 1999/02/11 11:06

simon@ said:

But I didn't think you'd watched more than 3 or 4 episodes of any
of the new Treks (ie since TNG began). So is that judgement based
on having only watched a couple of the dodgy eps.?

Nope, my knowledge of "the Borg" is based only on seeing "First Contact".
That's enough.

Ah. 1st contact was where they first introduced the "borg queen", and
yes, that's DEFINITELY the most shite thing they've ever done to the
borg. The borg were quite respectable before then.

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
Give me ambiguity or give me something else.

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by Philip Ayres on 1999/02/12 10:10

Ah. 1st contact was where they first introduced the "borg queen", and
yes, that's DEFINITELY the most shite thing they've ever done to the
borg. The borg were quite respectable before then.

Disagree. The moment they started humanising the Borg - I, Borg - I knew
we were in trouble. Q-Who & Best of Both Worlds are where the best Borg
stories are found. They should have kept them like that as some relentless
destructive force totally alien to humanity.

Besides I, Borg is only a rehash of Peter David's (far superior IMHO) novel
Vendetta - copy in the IFIS library...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
E-Mail: payres@
Web Site: www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by S. Singh on 1999/02/12 10:38

all drones have a queen don't they? or is that just us humans......god save
the queen!

----------
From: Philip Ayres[SMTP:payres@]
Reply To: chat@
Sent: 12 February 1999 10:10
To: chat@
Subject: Re: RE: Voyager : SPOILERS

Ah. 1st contact was where they first introduced the "borg queen", and
yes, that's DEFINITELY the most shite thing they've ever done to the
borg. The borg were quite respectable before then.

Disagree. The moment they started humanising the Borg - I, Borg - I knew
we were in trouble. Q-Who & Best of Both Worlds are where the best Borg
stories are found. They should have kept them like that as some
relentless
destructive force totally alien to humanity.

Besides I, Borg is only a rehash of Peter David's (far superior IMHO)
novel
Vendetta - copy in the IFIS library...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Philip Ayres
E-Mail: payres@
Web Site: www.netcomuk.co.uk/~payres
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

(no subject)

Posted by Philip Ayres on 1999/02/12 15:53

all drones have a queen don't they?

Do they have to ?

I thought (yearning for the good old days once again) that the borg were
better as a flat society - all equal.
The shots on the Borg ships of all the borg speaking as one were really
quite good .... And kind of scary too ...

Perhaps the Star Trek writers couldn't handle the concept or felt that the
americain public needed to fix their attention on a leader for this enemy.

First Locutus, then Lore, the Borg Queen, Hugh, 7 of 9 have all at times
been portrayed as spokesmen/individuals within the borg...

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If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying,
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is prohibited and may be unlawful.

????????????????

Posted by Daniel Celano on 1999/02/12 16:22

I get over 80 e-mails a day at work - how do I manage, I use the TITLE,
as most are not important or relativent to me
- please make my life a little simplier my giving e-mails a title.

Daniel

(no subject)

Posted by Jon L. on 1999/02/15 12:50

An interesting point and that I think I can answer. This might get a
bit technical, so stop me if it sounds like i'm talking arse.

The American trend towards individualism and the need to give your
enemy a face can be traced back as far as the drawing up of the
Constitution and American law.
American law is almost unique in that it places emphasis on the
rights of the individual rather that on the rights of society, which
probably explains why Clinton is getting away with it. In other
words, if all the Borg are equal that makes them 'citizens' and
therefore they can be read as an analogy of American culture: if
there is a Queen they become 'subjects', which is why she refers to
them as 'drones', and this is much scarier to American belief systems
with their fear of subjucation below a ruling class. Yes, I know that
this isn't how things work in real life, but we're not talking about
real life we're talking about theory and social programming.
Also, it is impossible for the enemy to be faceless anymore. If
there is no 'evil genius' to hate then the (American) public will
ask too many questions along the lines of "Is it right to send our
boys away to fight?" and that would never do. Just look at the
debacles that were Korea and Vietnam and then think about the instant
vilification of Saddam Hussien during the Gulf War. Remeber that five
years earlier the CIA had been using Iraq as a base for spying on
Iran.
Ever since Hitler there has been a need to find a figurehead for the
enemy in order to make what is essentially sanctioned genocide seem
just.

Just thought you might like to know.

Jon

(no subject)

Posted by Adam Hattrell on 1999/02/15 13:05

Jon Lee wrote:

An interesting point and that I think I can answer. This might get a
bit technical, so stop me if it sounds like i'm talking arse.

Hi Jon,

Can I ask a favour. When you reply to an article on the IFIS
mailing lists (or any other list come to that), could you
quote just the teensyest bit of the previous message so that
we know what your refering to. I tend to read mail as it
comes in, and I don't keep copies of previous mails floating
around.

Cheers,

Adam

(no subject)

Posted by Jon L. on 1999/02/15 13:08

Can I ask a favour. When you reply to an article on the IFIS
mailing lists (or any other list come to that), could you

Yeah sure. No problem. Its just that I tend to get a bit carried
away. But you probably noticed that. Anyway, my apologies.

Jon

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by Chris L on 1999/02/11 15:17

It's lazy scriptwriting, if you want the truth. That sort of thing ceased

> >to be good enough in the 1950s, and only survives in SF backwaters
like
> >"Star Trek".
> >
>
> That is just a tad harsh isn't it?
But I didn't think you'd watched more than 3 or 4 episodes of any

of the new Treks (ie since TNG began). So is that judgement based on having
only watched a couple of the dodgy eps.?

Perhaps that is clearer. Trek is very very big for a mere backwater.

As for the Borg queen, I agree she is inconsistent. I had thought
she might have been explained as a method for the Unimind to survive
what happened when they took Hugh back, but nooo, she talked to Picard
as if she had met him.

Data did wonder about her precise role in the collective.

Chris
.........................................................
'Sift and slime, lemon lime,' the computer replied.
'Tap that toenail one more time'
There was nothing I could add to that so I left the bridge.

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by Jon L. on 1999/02/10 15:30

I think it makes you an individual. How apt for a message concerning
the Borg.

Jon

(no subject)

Posted by Carol-Ann C. on 1999/02/10 10:08

Just a quick question. Finally got round to seeing Star Trek Insurection
last night and was a little confused. Towards the end the Enterprise dumps
it's warp coil to deal with the sub-space thing, but then manages to race
back to rescue Picard. How does it do this? It's been traveling as fast as
possible to get out of the Briers, I would assume at warp and taking quite
a time to do it. So how the hell did they get back so fast without the
core? Do they have another power source equavalent to the core or do they
have spares?

Thanks

C-A

(no subject)

Posted by Paul Ilsley on 1999/02/10 10:10

Just a quick question. Finally got round to seeing Star Trek Insurection
last night and was a little confused. Towards the end the Enterprise dumps
it's warp coil to deal with the sub-space thing, but then manages to race
back to rescue Picard. How does it do this? It's been traveling as fast as
possible to get out of the Briers, I would assume at warp and taking quite
a time to do it. So how the hell did they get back so fast without the
core? Do they have another power source equavalent to the core or do they
have spares?

I think they had to get out of 'cloud' (or whatever it was in that system)
before it could use the warp drive. Though I maybe confusing this with
getting clear of the cloud before they could use the comms. Anyway why
did Riker wait until the enterprise was buggered before returning fire when
he could have easily destroyed the attackers before they even got the
shields
down. what a knob.

Cheers,

Paul

(no subject)

Posted by Chris L on 1999/02/10 15:14

Thanx guys. I'm one of those picky buggers who ain't seen it yet.
I have deliberately avoided seeing any specific info and now these.

Anyway, Riker did manage to lose the Enterptise to 20 Ferengi in an
outdated bird of prey during the series so those sound like his usual
battle tactics.

===== Original Message From "Ilsley, Paul G" <chat@> =====

Just a quick question. Finally got round to seeing Star Trek Insurection
last night and was a little confused. Towards the end the Enterprise dumps
it's warp coil to deal with the sub-space thing, but then manages to race
back to rescue Picard. How does it do this? It's been traveling as fast as
possible to get out of the Briers, I would assume at warp and taking quite
a time to do it. So how the hell did they get back so fast without the
core? Do they have another power source equavalent to the core or do they
have spares?

I think they had to get out of 'cloud' (or whatever it was in that system)
before it could use the warp drive. Though I maybe confusing this with
getting clear of the cloud before they could use the comms. Anyway why
did Riker wait until the enterprise was buggered before returning fire when
he could have easily destroyed the attackers before they even got the
shields
down. what a knob.

Cheers,

Paul

Chris
.........................................................
'Sift and slime, lemon lime,' the computer replied.
'Tap that toenail one more time'
There was nothing I could add to that so I left the bridge.

Voyager : SPOILERS

Posted by Jon L. on 1999/02/10 15:28

I was only teasing Asan, be nice.

Jon