Trek vs. Wars

While we're on the subject, have a look at the pictures at
http://hometown.aol.com/defiant41/trekwar/index.html

Created by a manic obsessive Trek fan, he seems to have suffered a complete
lapse of scale judgement. The picture with the Super Star Destroyer being
shot up by the Enterprise is just laughable.

Andy

Hmm. I just thought I'd offer my thoughts on this subject. It will
probably end up with me being universally hated, but that's a price I
don't mind paying (?!)

It seems to be the general consensus of opinion that your basic J.
Average Star Destroyer would dump heavily on the Enterprise (TM). I'm
not so sure.
For example, I include the following from a previous message from Steve
D:

The Galactic Empire vs. the Federation

No contest. Star Destroyers rock.

Not many grey areas there.
Don't get me wrong, I view ST in all its forms with as much contempt as
the next man (braces himself for the ensuing onslaught), but in this
case, I beg to differ.
Remember that Star Destroyers & SSDs have one HUGE weakness, and anyone
who has either a) observed the films very closely, or b) has played the
range of PC games (ie, Xwing, TIE fighter, or XvT (as an aside, I
heartily recommend getting 8 PCs networked & playing through the Balance
of Power Campaigns, they are truly fabulous; taking on the SSD in the
Final rebel mission is excellent)) will know what this is. Of course, I
am refering to the shield generators on top of the bridge section. I
mean, come on, the Empire might just as well paint them Day-Glo orange
with a big sign marked TORPEDOS HERE. Any Federation ship could toast a
SD with half a dozen torps: 1 each to the two shield generators, a
couple to the bridge, and a few more to the superstructure for good
measure. This is before the SD gets its turbolasers in range. Even if it
were in range, since your average X wing can take 4 or 5 hits from a
turbolaser, I don't think the Enterprise's shields would struggle much.
As for the swarms of TIEs that the SD puts out, I'm sure it's not
difficult for the Tac officer on the Fed ship to take them down with the
phasers, or if (s)he's a lazy bastard, to let the ship's computer do it.

Conclusion: SD's are a bit poo really. In the PC games, a decent pilot
in a Y wing or B wing can take down an ISD on it's own.

Cheers

Mike
(36801)
(0171 - 625 - 6801)
This message is confidential and for use by the addressee only. If the message is received by anyone other than the addressee, please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then delete the message from your computer.

'Internet communications are not secure. The Royal Bank of Scotland plc does not accept responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent.'

Previously Mike said:
I was under the impression that the shield generators were themselves inside
the shields, and it was a lucky hit that took them out, allowing Kamikaze
Bob the A-Wing pilot to fly into the bridge.
I've got to dispute that on intuitive grounds. Turbolasers are generally
used for planetary bombardment, capital ship battles and the like. The idea
that a starfighter (even with shields) could soak multiple hits from a
turbolaser seems silly. I've looked at the RPG stats, and this seems the
case - an X-Wing hit by a turbolaser is more than likely to become an
expanding cloud of white-hot debris, shields or no. Perhaps they were toned
down in the PC game so you don't die instantly each time a turbolaser hit
you.

An X-Wing might shrug off several hits from a TIE fighter, but that's
reasonable considering they're of approximately the same scale, and the
X-Wing has shields (a major advantage in starfighter combat).
Yeah, well, TIEs are expendable anyway. They're more for the annoyance
value, and to engage enemy starfighters.
See above argument about the unrealistic crapness of ISD weapons. In a
one-on-one, starship vs. starship combat, the odds are fairly even. However,
a battle between the Empire and the Federation would be short-lived because
a) the Federation appoint officers like Janeway and Kirk (who would have
suffered the "you have failed me for the last time" effect long since if
they were in the Empire), and b) the Empire have 25,000 ISDs, and comparable
numbers of smaller ships.

Later,

Steve :-)
_
__
(oO)
/||\

Huge turning circle?
Oh, them.
Hmm, interesting point. But why couldn't the SD intercept the torps with
it's warhead launcher and multiple weapon batteries?
This is based on the computer game. In the films, a turbolaser hit decimates
fighters. RotJ is a prime example. Alliance fighters falling like files to
the SSD's turbolasers.
Again, possible, but bear in mind the shear number of them is going to mean
it will take some time. Time used by the SD to bring all weapons to bear and
pound the Feds into dust.
Yes, but again this is based on the games. I am firmly convinced that the
fighters have been beefed up in the games to make it more fun to play. Prime
example: Torpedo capacity. In the films, each fighter only carried two
torps. In the game, it's four. Instant doubling of firepower.
To simulate what a proper turbolaser hit would do to a fighter, try turning
shields off. One hit will leave you crippled.
In the trench in Star Wars, the only fighter that isn't taken out by the
first laser blast is Luke's. These are normal TIE fighter laser blasts.
The only SD I can recall having the shield generators knocked out on was the
SSD in RotJ. This ship was taken out by a lucky (except for the pilot)
impact of an out of control A-Wing straight into the front of the bridge.

Conclusion: Fighters are much more powerful in the game. Therefore the Star
Destroyers seem much weaker than they actually are.

If you recall, my original message contained the following:
The point was the scale. Star Destroyers at 1.6 km are going to dwarf Fed
Starships which are nowhere near as big. SSD's at 8km long are going to do
the same, only more so. Another point I should have pointed out is that in
none of the pictures do the SDs appear to be returning fire. This should
give an indication of the bias within the page.

Andy

PS. Steve's email arrived just as I was finishing this, but he didn't pick
up on some of these points. I appologise for any repetition.

I agree that fighters have been beefed up significantly in the games,
but taking it to extremes, in that case, in the films,the attack on the
fleet/death star would have been vapourised instantly. In SW, from what
I recall, there was only one squadron of Xwings & one of Ywings involved
on the death star run. I think there's 12 ships to a squadron, or at
most 24, which means a grand total of 24(48) ships. Considering the
amount of turbolaser towers on the surface, if the fighters were one hit
wonders, as it were, the attack wouldn't have lasted five minutes, let
alone the time taken to do the (was it 2 or 3) trench runs. Obviously,
this is a case of dramatic license overriding common sense, but......

And anyway, this is all irrelevant to the fundamental point. The Feds
wouldnt get in range of the turbolasers, just bombard with torps from
miles away. Considering the rate of fire of the torp launchers, the feds
could have about twenty or so in the air at once, and the SD couldnt
take down them all, if any. Never having done it, I cant say how
difficult it would be, but nevertheless, I imagine it would be a right
git to target and destroy twenty incoming projectiles moving at at least
the speed of light, possibly more. (Hmm, one for the techies there, I
can't remember the specs of the torps). I'd be impressed if even the
computer could do that. Also, re: SD's warhead launchers, I'm willing to
be corrected, but I don't ever recall from the films an SD launching
torps. I think that's a feature of the games only.

Ps, I did recognize that the original post dealt with the scale of the
pictures rather than the simple fact of the feds winning, but I was
commenting on the perceived undercurrent of feeling that I detected from
all the posts. No offence intended, I hope none was perceived.
Cheers

Mike
(36801)
(0171 - 625 - 6801)
[Collins, Mike (CC)] <snip!>


This message is confidential and for use by the addressee only. If the message is received by anyone other than the addressee, please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then delete the message from your computer.

'Internet communications are not secure. The Royal Bank of Scotland plc does not accept responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent.'

Andy wrote:
This is a very sad page where the bloke has just cut-n-pasted various ST &
SW pictures to create some silly montages. At least he admits to his
blatant ST bias.

As for the X-wing game. The game is great but the fighters have been
massively beefed-up to help the game play. It is not a realistic simulation
of the relative offensive capabilities of the ships in the films.

As for these tv-show V tv-show debates - they are completely stupid - I love
'em.

My 2pennyworth.

Q - He is a god with unlimited(ish) power so he could always beat any other
race,
so I'll ignore him.

ST: All the ST ships have the huge advantage of shields. Depending on how
powerful
you consider the shields to be compared to other TV/film 'universes' they would
probably do quite well in a capital ship v capital ship battle. The best
advantage
any ST ships have is cloaking devices.

SW: shields, loads of ships & fighters. Most SW fleets could swamp a fed fleet
with
fighters. Obviously the Death Star is pretty hard too ;-)

B5: Dunno how you would compare hyperspace v Lightspeed/Warp speed. If only the
B5
ships could use Hyperspace then at least they could hide :-)
As for the shadows/Vorlons - they could probably slice & dice races from most
other
programs quite easily. Telepaths however would probably make it a bit easy
against
ST ships. "I'll just read your mind Hmmm.... Oh, I now know all the silly little
codes
that you stupid Fed people have to remotely disable your shields, turn off your
weapons,
self destruct...."

BattleStar Galactica. cool program but, let's face it, They'd probably get
their arses
kicked by just about every other show (except maybe Buck Rogers...).

StarFleet: The X-Bomber could beat any other ship, unless somebody was able to
beam
aboard and cut the pilots strings. That might be a bit unfortunate.

Paul.

Hi, time for me to wade into the thick of things methinks.

Before I start getting techie, could I draw your attention to Deep Space
Nine - The search (Series 3-4?), and a scene whereby three Jem'Hadar ickle
fighters obliterate a Galaxy Class Starship, *just because they can*.
<snip loadsa stuff about shield generators>

You seem to be missing the fact that in all the Star Trek battles I've seen,
it only takes 2 enemy pot shots to bring the enterprises' sheilds down to
twenty percent or so.

Federation starships also tend to explode quite quickly if you target their
engines and cause a warp core breach (USS Grissom - The search for Kahn).

I take it you haven't seen the carnage that happens in DS9 : Sacrifice of
Angels. I think I'll put up the screen grabs I took onto my homepage, and
then you'll see how federation ships hold up against a dominion onslaught :)
Your average X-Wing doesn't have a chance of firing on a Star Destroyer,
because it's normally being mobbed by several squadrons of TIE interceptors.

The bombing is normally the job of the Y-Wings and B-Wings, and the Y-Wings
are so geriatric that they're sitting ducks for any TIE interceptor.
There aren't that many Phasers on a federation ship. Apart from Defiant,
which has multiple rapid fire phasers, federation starships only have about
4 or 5, and they fire quite slowly.

Star Destroyers , Imperial class especially, have shit loads of turbo laser
batteries.
Photon Torpedoes? Pah!! Imperial Class star destroyers come with torpedo
launchers which can lock onto incoming torpedoes and intercept them, ready
fitted for your conveniance.
They also come with a standard complement of several squadrons of Tie
Fighters, Interceptors and Bombers.

I would like to see the Enterprise' tactical officer take out a Star
Destroyer, several squadrons of Tie bombers, interceptors and advanced, and
several dozen waves of space rockets / proton torpedoes, all in one go!!!

As is stated in X-Wing Vs Tie Fighter, battles are lost and won by the
pilots of the starfighters. Considering how federation ships have only got
little shuttle crafts, I would LOVE to see them take on a Tie Advanced armed
with Advanced missles :)
So, I take it you've, by yourself, with no assisting wingmen, and a standard
complement of torpedoes, taken out a fully armed imperial class star
destroyer, with all it's turbolasers targeted on you, and it's Tie fighters
/ et al, without dying once have you?

Now THAT would be a victory to see :)

cheers
Asan

[Collins, Mike (CC)] Irrelevant. You're assuming that the
weapons in the SW universe are comparable to those in the ST universe,
which, IMHO, they aren't. When SW capital ships exchange fire they seem
to slug away at each other for ages, which to me implies that an
individual turbolaser is weak, but this is compensated for since there
are shedloads of them.
[Collins, Mike (CC)] Agreed, but that's missing the point.
Xwings have short range weapons, but the feds torp launchers are long
range, much longer than turbolaser range
[Collins, Mike (CC)] I seem to recall from the Tech manual that
the Enterprise has 10 phaser banks at least. [Collins, Mike (CC)] And
anyway, if you recall that episode of TNG (I forget the name) where
their minds are wiped and they think they are supposed to invade some
other species' space. Witness how the Enterprise deals with a squad of
fighters: Three short phaser bursts within about a second - no more
fighters. Admittedly there were only three of them, but I think the
ship's computer could handle more; hell I would think a present day PC
could handle that :-)
[Collins, Mike (CC)] Irrelevant. See range issues above.
[Collins, Mike (CC)] Where? I don't recall any from the films.
Feel free to correct me.
[Collins, Mike (CC)] Again irrelevant (Hmm. Am I turning into a
Borg here?). I think that the feds could waste a star destroyer before
half a dozen waves have got within range.
[Collins, Mike (CC)] I wouldn't. I'd want more for my money
than the short display I'd be treated to. :-)
[Collins, Mike (CC)] I haven't taken on the whole thing ie ISD
+ fighters all together. The particular instance I refer to is the final
Rebel mission in the Balance of Power campaign: If you head straight for
the SSD, your command ship gets wasted by an ISD+multiple waves of
bombers that pops in behind it. After falling for this a couple of
times, I laid in wait for it: when it appears, I just sent 1 heavy
rocket into each shield gen, and unloaded the rest into the
superstructure. It was short. Technically cheating, I know, but short
nonetheless. Then you clean up the bombers and that's it. You can then
get on with the SSD. It looks good on the mission stats screen
afterwards :-)
Cheers

Mike
(36801)
(0171 - 625 - 6801)



This message is confidential and for use by the addressee only. If the message is received by anyone other than the addressee, please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then delete the message from your computer.

'Internet communications are not secure. The Royal Bank of Scotland plc does not accept responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent.'

I also remember that the alien ships were horribly underpowered. When they
reach that big space station at the end, Geordi himself comments that one
photon torpedo would have destroyed it. So really, they were going up
against pretty shite opposition :)
Maybe because the films were made well over a decade ago, and they didn't
have the funds or the technology to show them? :)
Have you seen DS9: Sacrifice of angels yet? :) That more or less shows how
Fed ships cope when going up against *class* opposition :)

cheers
Asan

Well, you know guys, I sometimes long to see of fifteen ISD's opening up
on the Enterprise, I dream of seeing Vader showing Spock the 'no-hands'
version of the neck-pinch, but lets face it, in a war between the Imperials
and the Federation, the Federation would win after one series and a
feature-length movie. Why? Because they'd cheat. The Fed's would get there
are kicked through most of the series (though the Enterprise would always
survive, again by cheating). Then, during the movie the Fed would create a
new piece of technology which will render the Force and Force based
technologies useless. They would then muller forwards and take back in a few
hours what it had taken the Empire a whole season to win. It's a standard
ST. plot line, and one of the reasons I hate ST.! it is so bloody
predictable!

Anyway, to sum up: in reality, the Rebel Alliance could take on the
Federation. In Star Trek 'reality', the whole of the SW universe couldn't
take on the Federation.


James "fanning the flames" Hanley

-----Original Message-----
From: Hanley F [mailto:F.Hanley@]
Sent: 26 November 1998 15:21
To: 'chat@'
Subject: RE: Trek vs. Wars
few
You can just imagine the scene now...

With 5 minutes left to the end credits of the feature-length ST:TNG v 'The
empire'
50 Star Destroyers surround Earth with only the crippled Defiant and the
Enterprise
down to .1% shields to stop them. Worf, in an attempt to gain the episode
some
credibility, prepares to Ram Darth Vader's SD, with a shout of "Today is a
good day
to die!". However, before he can reach full impulse, Data & Geordie emerge
onto
the bridge mumbling techno-babble to each other and announce they have
finished
re-aligning the main deflector dish to fire the
neo-tachyeon-plotdeviceoftheweek
particle beam which instantly sends all the Empires' ships back to their own
universe.
All the crew cheer, the Earth is safe and everyone ignores all the people &
ships
which have been destroyed in the battle because there all be fine again next
week
anyway....


Paul.

Paul wrote:
So finally we are all agreeed the federation would kick the empires
butt.

See yer

Chris

Well it depends who gets to write the script.

Anyone want to predict the outcome of

Paramount Lawyers v Lucasfilm Lawyers ;-)

Paul.

Paramount 0, Lucasfilm 1 ? :-)

Andy

Most probably!!

Only if we are agreed that Star Treck is c***, and Star Wars rocks!
:-)

James

Er no. I agree thatt star wars is better (the fed would still kick there
butts though) but star trek is not crap.

And if you personally want to dispute this with me, then come out of your
sanctuary that is email and face me man to man.

Now god dammit.

Cheers

Chris

WILE.E

NO!! NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

No way, the empire doesn't give a damn if it is a class M planet....