a new society for ex-students?

Hello everyone, but particularly ex-students.

The SU appear to have made (or have enforced apon them) a rule that means we
are not allowed in to the Union Building at the weekends ever again. This is
on top of them not wanting us to gain access to the books in the evenings,
as we are "in the way" when they are setting up for a function.

Unless the current committee can pull off a miracle, it appears all the
efforts of many of us over several years to get a permanent place where the
books are easily accessible have therefore been in vain.

I hear that the SU are trying to encourage societies to "make links with"
the local community. I *want* to help IFIS, for the sake of the current
students.

I wonder if therefore us old-timers have been approaching our relationship
with the Student Union in the wrong way? We currently get a feeling of
"Well, cheers for the help", but also of "but you are not *current*
students", with the resulting effect that *our* wishes count for little in
such a matter. The fact is there is a large (and growing by the year)
community of ex-students members of IFIS who are happy to provide resourses
and help. Us old-timers are often treated with some annoyance *because* the
current students find us all a bit too pushy. This is because we want our
interests looked after.

So, what I propose is to start up a SF and Fantasy society.

Membership will be open to anyone. I would expect our membership to start
locally, and draw in all ex-student IFIS members, plus maybe a few who don't
bother/ we are still in contact with. I would think we could arrange some
sort of mutual affiliation of members with IFIS. Perhaps someone who is
better at rules and regs could suggest something. This would stop us from
excluding current students. This would allow us the opportunity to access
the books within the IFIS library, whilst providing resourses in return. It
would no longer be a matter of a personal favour.

We will be then able to *co-operate with* IFIS, and the SU will take
seriously the efforts of us old-timers. We turn thus from interfering old
busy-bodies who are EX_students into "important local links".If we listed
the enthusiasm and efforts that us old-timers have put into helping out
IFIS, I think the students will find it quite substantial.

Personally I feel unable to buy all the books I want to read. IF we cannot
get access to the library, maybe we can get some lending system going
amongst us old-timers, and put in a few pounds a year in building up *our*
own library. We could include a film section as well.

I have been in contact with someone who *was* going to get me details of
Cons. He never got back to me, but I would like to go after these sorts of
details. I have never been to a Con, but maybe its time I made the effort.
After all, from what I have heard me, Simon and Richard might even find some
people out there who had things in common with us. It was from these *other*
interests that I was going to get these details from :-).... and hell, after
all that effort making myself up as Ivanova it might be nice to mingle with
some more people who had tried a bit more than your *average* student.

Comments please. If there is enough interest, perhaps Nick will allow me to
start up a seperate list.


Jenny Gould

---
jenny@


"What the hell is it good for"
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Urkk?

You mean ex-students aren't allowed in, or no-one's allowed in?
Do tell me if my "Life Membership" card isn't going to cut it any more.
I guess you could maybe form an SF society, and then have IFIS say "We've
teamed up with this local community society", but that only really works for
the Union if it's "Join IFIS and get the additional benefits of this other
society". And what you want is an outside society that gets the benefit of IFIS
- ie. the library. The ex-students may talk a lot, and do a lot of gopher work,
but they have little to offer materially.

Basically, the Union is right. They have no need to pander to the interests of
ex-students. It's not what they're for.

Now graduate membership of ULU is a different thing.
They charge 15 quid/year for the privilege, and also charge more for using the
facilities. They WANT outsiders to get involved, so that they can make money.
(Or they're trying to discourage outsiders by charging more. I haven't worked
out which yet. I know they're being a bit stricter on percentage of graduates
you're allowed to have in a society.)
Well hell - it only took about 6 years for the IFIS library to become worth the
effort. You could do.

But sadly, I don't think there are THAT many ex-students who would bother.
A lot of the ex-student input to this list is from people who live too far
away, or earn enough money to buy their own books.


Dominic.

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
[Winston Churchill]

Not too sure about the new society; I agree with Dominic.
- but a new mailing list is abit pointless as we don't use the two we already
got. The chat list is already swamped with message that would be better
suited for the annouce list.

Daniel

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Nortel Ltd, E-Mail : celano@
140 greenway,
Harlow Business Park, TEL : (01279) 405316
Harlow,
Essex.
CM19 5QD FAX : (01279) 405070

=====================================================================

Dominic Thomas said:
Tommy's bar on the side is open, and you can go in there for a drink
at SU prices, but the main building is locked during the day. if
there's an event in the evening they'll presumably open for that, but
then we've again got the problem of not being allowed in there in the
evenings because we get in the way when they're setting up for the
events.
That was along the lines of what had been discussed before. They could
also (obviously they'd want to vote on this first) donate their
library to us because we could better look after it and make it more
available to both students and non-students.

This was one of the plans back when there was so much hassle over the
library last time.

Oh dear, we're arguing about the library again, aren't we? Good time
to go into hibernation ;-)
Materially? Other than a huge proportion of their membership fees,
generous donations of books, videos, websites, mailing-lists,
photocopying and printing services, DTP, etc etc etc?

"Well all right, but APART from all that, what HAVE the romans ever done
for us?"
The union has (at least THIS year) been stronglyly ENCHORAGING the
societies to build stronger links with the local community. IFIS has
technically been doing this for years!
RHUL SU life membership is a one-off fee, but if you want to remain
members of the various societies, you still have to pay the standard
membership fee.

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.

In what way exactly could "we" look after the library better than ...
Well indeed better than what?

The library for the first time in a very long time is now available
to students, on campus. That ex-students may have difficulty in
gaining access to those books is really irrelevant. They are not
there for our benefit they are there for current students who don't
have access to the resources that we do.
Yes it was a touted plan. But it was one that the committee of the
time would never have agreed to. The books belong to IFIS. They
belong to the current and future members of the society, as well
as the past. Any committee that just handed them over to another
group would be failing in their posts.
Maybe 30% on a bad year. As little as 5% on a good.
Hmmm, perhaps you ought to look up the definition of "Donation".

It's very rare that one of us provides anything that costs
us anything. The printing and photocopying is done at our
workplaces, the books we've finished with anyway, the videos
we would watch anyway. The mailing list certainly used to be
something you ran from work, as did the website. The org name
registration did come out of your own pocket, but the society
is paying you back.

Yes what we provide is usefull, but we aren't owed anything. Besides
which the union hasn't said that we can't use the facilities, they've
said you can't go in on Sundays. In comon with every other society,
including those that have what are considered links with the outside
comunity.
Maybe so. But why does that require the SU to open it's doors on
a weekend to allow non-students access to their property for little
or no recompense?

Bear in mind that it costs the union money to open on the weekends. If
they are closing it's more likely than not that they can't afford to
stay open.

Later,

---

Adam Hattrell, Support, Cimio Ltd. adam@

"Donation" has several meanings and certainly one of these is "a free
contribution" which I certainly think applies to pretty much all the work
done by society members who aren't on the committee. Printing and
photocopying is something the society would have to pay for. Providing it
free is certainly a contribution, Saying that we'd read the books and
videos does not discount their value. If I was about to buy a new car,
would me giving you the old one not be considered generous? The fact that
the website and list used work resources doesn't exclude the large amount
of time and effort that obviously went into getting them going. If I
remeber correctly didn't Nick write the list software himself? As a
software engineer I'm sure you're not about to state that working code is
worthless or trivial to produce (especially at some companies :-) ). The
point being missed here is that people's time and effort, given freely, is
a very valuable contribution and to say otherwise seems ludicrous. I might
even point out that on the occasions that the theoric has been fully spent
by going on a book buying spree, that it's been mainly ex students who've
gone...
No reason. After all they're not letting currebnt students in either.
However, given that they do charge for life membership it would be nice if
it were possible to actually visit the place other than to attend
functions.
That's a fair point.

Adam Hattrell said:
When the library was in Reid, both student and ex-student members had
access on thursday EVENINGS before the pub, and several other days a
week, at various times, including some weekends. The books had a
sensible ammount of space, and were layed out in such a way as you
could actually see all of them, although the ordering was a bit
screwy.

When the library was at 85 St Judes, both students and ex-students
could visit it at almost any time within reason, in or out of
term-time, although I'll admit that we ought to have given students
some real directions, maybe showed them where it was. The books were
layed out on some nice long shelves, excellently alphebetized, and you
could see ALL of them.

When the library has been looked after by the SU, it's spent most of a
year in boxes in the back of a locked cupboard behind some tech crew
gear in the back of the hall with a sign on the door saying "beware of
the leopard", and has only relatively recently aquired a locked
cupboard. The books are stacked 3 deep, where it's very difficult to
just browse through books, and you really have to know what you're
looking for because you're going to have to unload and reload a couple
of lines of books most of the time. Students are able to visit on one
or occasionally 2 days a week, ex-students basically can't visit it at
all. We can't keep it open until mid-evening on thursdays because
we'll get in the way of the tech crew and the events officers setting
up for their events. We can't visit on weekends. All we can do is ask
for books to be brought to us in the pub.

OK, even if you pretend the ex-students don't exist, they've still got
a locked cupboard in the back of the union with books layed out such
that they CAN'T be seen properly, and with books needing to be
routinely unloaded and reloaded onto the shelves, they're bound to
drift out of alphabetical order.
Compared with having the books in boxes in the back of [etc etc] it
was a bloody brilliant proposal!
What, if all current, future, and past members had access to them, and
they were layed out one book deep on long shelves in alphabetical
order with access to them INCLUDING EVENINGS AND WEEKENDS?

YES the books belong to IFIS, but IFIS is the members, not the SU that
kept them in boxes for most of a year.
contribution, gift, benevolence, boon, favour, grant, present, award,
bonus, commission, dividend, gratuity, money, percentage, perk,
premium, prize, sharing, stake, tip.

What have I missed? Ex-students are allegedly not doing any of the
above? Really?

[blahblah]
yes, so we can keep them ourselves, we can sell them to a local
2nd-hand bookstore (for MONEY), we can bin them, or we can give them
to IFIS where (in theory) they'll be more valuable to all members of
the society, yeah right, haha.
Still is, but it still takes time, and time is, allegedly, money. I
can spend my time doing more work and making more money for the
company, which is bound to eventually filter down to me, or I can
spend some of that time working for IFIS, and gaining other (non
monetary) rewards from it.
What I said was that if they WANT to pay me for it, they're welcome,
but I never expected it when I first registered the domain anyway. 40
quid a year is equivalent to about 15 membership fees. web site
consultancy and design fees, hell, you can make a packet doing that,
but I'm giving it to IFIS for free and I've never even CONSIDERED that
I might instead do it for someone else and get payed for it. It costs
IFIS nothing, but is WORTH the same as a good few more membership
fees.

Photocopying is valuable for the same reasons. It doesn't COST IFIS a
thing if us non-members rip off our employers for it, but it's still
WORTH something.
We aren't owed any MONEY for it, no, but we don't deserve to be just
told "you're not students, you're worthless, we're not letting you
have access to the society's property".

If Mr X Student gives IFIS 30 quid's worth of photocopying, it's still
30 quid that IFIS WOULD have had to pay out of it's own money, or
they'd have had to do less newsletters a year, or smaller newsletters,
or they'd have had to get another 10 members in the first place to pay
for it.

The photocopying, the books, the videos, the web space, the domain
name, the mailing-lists, the DTP, the sorting and auditing of books,
the organisation of trips, and everything else that ex-students have
provided, and all the associated time and effort, might not have COST
us anything, financially, they might be provided FREE OF CHARGE, out
of the KINDNESS OF OUR HEARTS, but that doesn't mean they're
worthless.
Most of the other societies don't need access to their own property
which is being kept on SU premesis. You don't need to get into the SU
on sundays to go rock-climbing, arching, fencing, horseriding,
footballing, appreciating james bond, performing plays, getting
gamesoc blamed for ruing lecture theatres, going to toga parties, or
being lesbian, gay, or bisexual. You DO need access to your property
if the SU have decided that it must be kept on SU premesis.

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
MIPS: Meaningless Indicator of Processor Speed.

While the library was in SU hands in decrease in size and use...
When in the hands of the members it increased in size and use.
Spot the connection...

A number of members have given the society books on the grounds it
will be kept and used - one reason why I would be very annoyed if the
library was sold or filed away somewhere, where no one could get
access to it.

Daniel

=====================================================================

Nortel Ltd, E-Mail : celano@
140 greenway,
Harlow Business Park, TEL : (01279) 405316
Harlow,
Essex.
CM19 5QD FAX : (01279) 405070

=====================================================================

Jenny Gould said:
This has been suggested before. Whilst we're at it, why not keep the
name IFIS for "us" and let the SU have their way with "them" and call
it the RHULSU Sci-Fi soc? Membership of rhulsu sci-fi soc includes
free membership of the local egham science fiction society or IFIS or
whatever. the su society generously donate their library to someone
who can actually look after them better than the SU can, and all in
all a happy time is had by all.
Sure. oldtimers@? :-)

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
If I talk over people's heads, Ike must talk under their feet.

In article <E0y4Ouc-0007KG-00@>, Nick Waterman
<nick@> wrote:
Not quite as I am suggesting, no. I don't really feel it is *fair* to steal
the name away from IFIS. Okay, maybe it was us old-timers who were
responsible for insisting that the Union change the name back to IFIS, but
it is would be up to the students to change it back, *if they wanted*.
Free membership for IFIS members sounds fine: I am sure we could welcome
students. As I suggested, I would hope the two societies could co-operate,
so some form of affiliation would be good.
Right now, my cynicism in regards the SU has end-stopped. However, that is
*not* what I was suggesting. The books *do* belong to the SU, and we cannot
claim them. Also, a few of the students are at least trying to use them. In
fact, if you look, it always was very few students per year. It is just we
have hung around from a good spread of years, so that we have quite a number
of us.

I am talking about a seperate society, based loosely around this area. It
would initially recruit from IFIS and friends, and provide book/video
swapping amongst members, and maybe start a collection of its own.
Not really a suitable name, as it suggests only ex-students. Lets also
discuss this here, so we get feed-bacl from everyone first. I am *not*
trying to upset the current students, just leave them a little more
elbow-room to run *their* society, whilst I work on what I want. Personally
I can think of other locals who have SF interests, and imagine there are
other nice people out there in the local(ish) area who we just don't know. I
don't want to start a list made up of old-timers slagging current students,
but instead create something new and worthwhile.

On a new list, I would want members to actually talk about relevant things
to the society: i.e. no sad jokes. If you have nothing to say, keep your
mouth closed. If you want a seperate list for slagging off Americans, start
your own list up etc cetera. That way, people who work and don't have time
to cope with the level of traffic on ifis-chat could be involved :-)

Jenny Gould

---
jenny@


"Share and Enjoy"
-Marketing Division, Sirius Cybernetics Corporation

(The above opinions do not represent a policy statement for or on behalf of
One Chip Solutions)