Light etc..

Light has no mass. This can be very easily proved using relativity.

< Going technical >

Some of you will no doubt be aware that funny things happen as you
approach the speed of light. Strange things like mass increasing,
objects shortening, and time slowing down.
The mass of an object has been shown to increase with velocity up to
infinity at the speed of light. Photons by definition travel at the
speed of light, therefore can have either no mass, or infinite mass. If
they have infinite mass, then they will also have an infinite
gravitational field. This would have a rather alarming effect on the
universe (figure it out yourself).

I have am doing a special relativity course, and this is the explanation
given to me (as I understand it). Light bending due to gravity is
covered by general relativity, which is a course I take next year. I
believe that it is explained by light traveling through curved space
(space bent by the presence of a massive object).

That's all for now. Please feel free to flame me as a result, but just
remember, James started it.

Andrew

That sounds more like the explanation I was given. So if light has no
mass it can't have gravity, can it?
Thanks a bunch!! :-)

James Hanley, I am the Fire Starter, the twisted Fire Starter...
or however it goes.

Previously, Andrew Wren wrote...
Really? Objects get shorter? But I heard that, when travelling faster
than sound, Concorde actually gets longer! (Some guy on board put a
book in a gap he'd noticed in the wall, and when they landed gap and
book disappeared, to reappear when next they broke the sound barrier!)

Is this true or wot?

Incidentally, I've heard of something called a "naked singularity",
which is like a black hole... oh dear, Carry On impressions on
standby... ahem, as I was saying, light can escape from a naked
singularity although it gets distorted! They reckon this could be used
for the time-travel technique I mentioned previously (the one out of
Dr.Who: A Celebration).

And hey, wouldn't it be better to call black holes "dark stars"? "Hole"
suggests a 2-dimensional thing, and black holes are 3-dimensional (or
maybe N-dimensional, but you know what I mean).

Dave Chilard

Possibly, but this expansion was due to the heat caused by friction
between the plane and the air. At 1000mph+ this effect is considerable,
that's why there are all those ceramic tiles on the space shuttle (Mach
23+ on re-entry). What you have to remember though is that fast as
concorde is, it doesn't get within 0.001% of the speed of light, so
relativistic shortening can be ignored.
Yes, but according to Hawking etc. there is no such thing as a naked
singularity.
Well, maybe, Black hole was a bit of a bad choice for a name.

Andrew

Wren A said:
I thought that you could get a black hole that was spinning really
fast and that, erm, what happenned after that?

Something like light falling in at the poles and being spun back out
at the equator or something? Apparently if you were really nasty, you
could throw enough matter into a black hole at approximately the
correct angle that you'll make the star inside spin faster and faster
until it's centrifugal (or centripetal or whatever) force overcomes
the gravity and your black hole can spin itself to death, throwing
back out vast quantities of all the stuff it had sucked in over the
years.

But maybe I'm talking out of my behind...

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
She is not refined. She is not unrefined. She keeps a parrot. -- Mark Twain

I don't know. I only pretend to understand this sort of thing.
Maybe. :-)

Andrew

On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Chilard D wrote:
A stra generally gives out energy. A black hole doesn't. (It actually
does, but it's secondary radiation due to a very surreal effect caused by
annoying little pairs of particles that are spontaneously created in pairs
around the event horizon. Basically, these particles appear all over the
place at random, but, being a positive/negative pair (hence no energy is
used in their creation) the crash back into eachother and annihilate.
Around the event horizon, only one of the pair is sucked in, so there's a
glowing corona around it. To compensate, the negative matter particle
halves 'evaporate' the black hole. See 'A Brief History of Time')
So 'star' isn't a good name for a black hole. Gives the wrong idea.

I like the name for two reasons. You can throw things in them and they
disappear. Very hole-like. And they're black. Almost.

Also, there's the whole idea of supermassive black holes splurging off new
dimentions at right angles to our own, and creating new universes.
Anything thrown in them passes to the new universe. (Unfortunately it
won't be a recognisable shape at the other end. Extremely long and as thin
as you can get. Unless there are special conditions. Some black holes can
be approached safely (You still can't get back out past the event horizon)
until yu reach the quantum foam in the centre. No I have no idea either.
Nor do physisists, or so I'm led to believe.

No, I'm waffling again...

Sorry.

Ben

*---------------------------------------------*
| IVE SEEN THE FU *---------------------------*
| S T |
| R U |
| UCER STI DNA ER |
*-----------------*

O _____________
/ \ /3
o / X BAD \ / 3
< Fish X 3
. \__ TRIP / \ 3
/____________/ \3

I most certainly did not. Please be more careful when editing.
I would have thought that roughly even numbers of particles and
anti-particles get sucked in, thereby negating the effect of the
anti-particles annihilating within the black hole. I read that book, but
Hawking radiation (the process described above) struck me as very
theoretical. The timescale was of the order of 10^60 ish years to
evaporate a black hole, so any effects within our lifetimes are
immeasurably small.
Black they are, holes they definately are not, but I don't have a better
name to give them.
Why only supermassive blackholes creating new dimensions? They are only
bigger versions of 'normal' black holes.
That's alright. If we keep this thread going much longer, people are
going to start threatening violence unless we stop. If that is the case,
I suggest the following course of action: Blame James (he started it).
Andrew

Previously, Ben Pringlespanion wrote...
Er... that's why we would say "dark star" - as opposed to a "light
star". Hmm? It absorbs rather than emits energy. But star isn't the
opposite to a black hole, merely its absence... as Terry Pratchett would
say.
Firstly, "dark star" has the word "dark" in it; and secondly, if you
throw something into a hole, it doesn't "disappear", it just winds up at
the bottom! Oh no, it's black holes and bottoms again... stop!!!

But, as I said, a hole is an absence of stuff in the middle of stuff, if
you see what I mean, whereas a black h- I mean, a dark star is a
whacking great blob of matter in the middle of the eternal nothingness
of space! Holes also have no gravity, because they don't exist (as
such). Things run towards holes if the ground etc. slopes in that
direction, and go down the hole under gravity; the hole doesn't produce
gravity. (Yes, I know, that's getting a little too pedantic!)

Sorry, I'm not convinced by your arguments. (Sound familair?)
Quantum foam?! Does that get sprayed everywhere at physics discos?

And are you getting dimensions and universes mixed up again, as has been
done in past esoteric (sp.?) physics-based postings? Or is this
accurate (well, as far as we mere mortals know)?


Dave Chilard
"Sorry, sir, I appear to be commenting on everything" -- Mr.Data

Chilard D said:
No, Dark Star is a particularly DIRE film in the middle of an
otherwise very interesting genre.

http://us.imdb.com/Title?Dark+Star+(1973)

Hmmm. They call it "comedy" on that site. Maybe I missed something.

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
I used to be an agnostic, but now I'm not so sure.

Nick Waterman thought it would be amusing to write...
How come you got this E-mail and I didn't? Is it because I'm using
Exchange (as is Andrew Wren, next to me)?

Dave

Dave wrote:
No, I'm using Exchange and I got it OK.

I think the problem is your using Exchange in the *computer centre* :-)

Paul Isley wrote...
Stats Lab, actually (in that flimsy prefabricated building near the
Geology department) - the computers here are even more outdated! (We
have Netscape, which can actually use Java - how antiquated!)

Anyway, the rest all got here fine! And don't E-mails just go straight
to a central server, then triggering a signal to update the display if
E-mail is in use? Or wot?

Dave

In article <E0y2dKl-0005E1-00@>, Nick Waterman <nick@> wrote:
Or even "http://uk.imdb.com/Title?Dark+Star+(1973)", if you prefer not to
wait while the pages swim the Atlantic.
You missed something. It is comedy. The title song should have given it
away. If not, the surfing references, the alien scene, the computer,
Pinback's diary, the messages from Earth, or the closing scene which I won't
spoil for anyone who hasn't seen it. If you tried to treat it as "serious"
SF, well ... no, I won't. But I can see why you might use the adjective
"dire". You should think of it as an SF equivalent to "Naked Gun".


It's also interesting to see how it is directed - at least for us
non-experts. The darkness of the lighting is more than vaguely like
"Alien". It was made for an almost-negligible budget by some now quite
famous people, in their garage as far as I can tell. (See if you can spot
the misspelt notices on the props, for instance.)

It's also more than a little reminiscent of "Apocalypse Now", in that it has
the same "what the fuck are we doing here" flavour that lots of Vietnam-era
films have.



Simon

---
"This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind" -Ecclesiastes 4:16

simon@ | Not affiliated to any religion
simon@ | Not affiliated to any politics
H (+44/0)1784 431998 | Not affiliated to any ideology
W (+44/0)1784 434568 (GMT/BST) | What does that make me?

"I have been asked to point out, as if you couldn't guess, that my rantings
are not the opinions of One Chip Solutions. So now you know, don't you..?"

simon@ said:
oops. true. [quickly fixes IFIS events web pages before anyone notices]
I'll admit that I can't remember the title song. The alien beachball
wasn't funny. Surfing's not that funny either, is it?

As far as I can tell, the one and only actually FUNNY bit in it is the
bomb in the, er, yeah, the bit that we won't talk about because it
will spoil the one and only good moment in the movie for people who
haven't had the film inflicted on themselveves yet.
Except Naked Gun made me laugh. More than once. Quite a lot, actually.
Well yeah, it's a few miserable hippies living out their rather
pointless lives on a rather pointless spaceship that goes around
blowing up rather pointless stars - stars which could probably be left
to their own devices without harming anyone - and for some reason they
all wonder "what the fuck are we doing here"... hmm, I wonder why.

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
Chocolate: the OTHER major food group.

I've had lots of (usually even older than me) sagelike SF afficionados telling
me how great Dark Star is. I think Nick's the only person I've met who's seen
it (a rarity in itself) and doesn't like it.

But I never found it that funny either.
I'd call Red Dward the SF equivalent of Naked Gun.
That made me laugh.

Dark Star is a half-hearted attempt to make a humorous SF film like 2001, but
all it really manages is capturing the unending tedium of space.
(You might think it's boring to walk down to the paper shop...)

So I'm with Nick.
It sucks.

Dominic.

"The universe may be not only queerer than we think,
but queerer than we can think." [Robert Anton Wilson]

Dominic Thomas said:
You've met Estelle, so add her to the count too.
Indeed.
Cheers.

To make up for all the negetive things I've said about Dark Star, it's
only fair to point out ONE good thing about it... I DO owe quite a lot
to Dark Star. I can't TRULY hate it 100%...

Many years ago, IFIS thought it would be a good idea to have Dark Star
in the middle of an otherwise pretty good video evening. Estelle, who
until then was "just this girl", was so bored by Dark Star that she
fell asleep on my shoulder, and the rest is history, but the wedding
date is the 29th March, OK?

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
Tourist, Rincewind decided, meant "idiot". -- (Terry Pratchett)

Hooray!

A blow for good taste.

I can't stand Dark Star.

It is crap and boring with the exception of the bomb going 'Let there be
light'.

See ya,

Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Waterman <nick@>
To: chat@ <chat@>
Date: 12 February 1998 13:20
Subject: Re: Dark Star
seen

Previously, Jim Smart wrote:
That'll be the spoiler, then?

Later,

Steve :-)
_
__
(oO)
/||\

Jim Smart said:
OH NO!

He's spoilt the GOOD BIT!

There you go, if you've not already seen the film, you don't need
to. You already know the only bit that needed knowing. Jim has saved
you the tedium of watching the rest of it.

The whole scene is:

<SPOILER SPACE>




























</SPOILER SPACE>

One of the guys is arguing with this artificially-intelligent bomb
thing. This bomb has decided to lock itself outside the bomb bay and
start the count-down, but the release-device has failed and the bomb
is still attached to the ship, so this hippie is out there in his
space-suit trying to convince the bomb to stop the countdown and come
back inside so they can fix the release mechanism.

For some reason this guy is talking philosopy with this bomb. I think
it was basically that the bomb refused to stop the countdown because
it didn't believe the crew-members existed, and anyway, it was it's
one aim in life to count down and explode. They get to the "prove that
YOU exist" bit, and the bomb eventually says "I think, therefore I
am. Let there be light!", and blows up.

Bang, flash, whallop, any remaining crew members are blown to
smithereens along with the rest of the ship, leaving only this
wannaber-surfer out there in his space-suit, gradually drifting out of
orbit of this planet and heading for re-entry, but ho ho ho, happy
ending honest, this guy grabs a bit of the wreckage and uses it to
surf into the atmosphere of the planet, thus fulfilling his lifelong
wish to actually go surfing before he died rather than just being a
sad git who collected surf-boards and didn't use them.

Hoorah.

Other than that, there's a frozen ex-captain, there's a pet alien that
looks remarkably like a beachball, and there's an almost interesting
musical instrument constructed out of half-empty bottles and an
intricate system of hammers and levers. That's it. that's the whole
film.

Now go and watch something like "Mary Poppins" instead. It's probably
a lot more fun.

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
A good pun is its own reword.

Nick Waterman wrote:
Heh, to quote a post I made just before Xmas:

"anything which can be spoiled by a spoiler was probably already
pretty spoiled to begin with."

Later,

---

Adam Hattrell, Support, Cimio Ltd. adam@

I actually liked "Dark Star" and think it's a very good film -
and if it can still spout a load of discussion 20 years later it
can't be that bad.

Daniel

=====================================================================

Nortel Ltd, E-Mail : celano@
140 greenway,
Harlow Business Park, TEL : (01279) 405316
Harlow,
Essex.
CM19 5QD FAX : (01279) 405070

=====================================================================

It's also interesting to see how it is directed - at least for us
non-experts. The darkness of the lighting is more than vaguely like
"Alien". It was made for an almost-negligible budget by some now quite
famous people,

Was it Ridley Scott? I seem to remember hearing that but I'm not sure.
...............................................................................
clyth@
In relativity, matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter
how to move. The Heart of Gold told space to get knotted...
D. Adams Life, The Universe and Everything

----------

Lyth Chris said:
http://uk.imdb.com/Title?Dark+Star+(1973)

(hmm, I'm sure the UK server is STILL slower than the us one)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dark Star (1973)

What would you be like after 20 years aboard DARK STAR the spaced-out
spaceship. The ultimate cosmic comedy!

USA 1973 Color

Certification:
USA:G
Language:
English
Genre/keyword:

Sci-Fi / _Comedy_ / bomb / satire / futuristic / aliens /
space / artificial-intelligence / drugs / surfing /
cult-film
Distributed by:
Jack H. Harris / Liberty Home Video (video)

Directed by
John Carpenter

Cast (in credits order) complete, awaiting verification
Brian Narelle
Doolittle
Cal Kuniholm
Boiler
Dre Pahich
Talby
Dan O'Bannon
Pinback

rest of cast listed alphabetically
Joe Saunders
Commander Powell
Michael Shaw (I)
Miles Watkins
Mission Control

Written by
John Carpenter
Dan O'Bannon

Cinematography by
Douglas Knapp

Music by
John Carpenter

Production Design by
Dan O'Bannon

Film Editing by
Dan O'Bannon

Produced by
John Carpenter
Jack H. Harris

Other crew
Gregory Jein
model construction

Dan O'Bannon
special effects

Links with other titles

references
THX 1138 (1970)
referenced in
Alien (1979)
spoofs
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the
Bomb (1963)
2001: A Space Odyssey (1968)

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
Preposterous, adj. The idea that murder is a crime.

John Carpenter?!!
I knew it was one of the supposedly good directors.
...............................................................................
clyth@
In relativity, matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter
how to move. The Heart of Gold told space to get knotted...
D. Adams Life, The Universe and Everything

Previously, Chris Lyth wrote...
Did you know, Ridley Scott used to work for the BBC? (Such humble
beginnings!) In fact, Terry Nation supposedly asked him to help him
design the Daleks, but he was too busy and so the job fell to Raymond
Cusick instead (the guy at the next easel). Hmm... wasn't there a
Dr.Who story, circa 1974, that had aliens which lay their eggs in human
hosts...?

[Conspiracy theory #19,328]

Dave C.

Yeah

Ark in Space

Previously, James Hadwen wrote...
Gahh! I know that, I have the video!!! I wasn't asking what the story
was - I was pointing out how suspicious it is! Honestly, some people
have a low opinion of my intelligence. (Some?!)

By the w- I mean, BTW, what exactly is the Kennedy Assassination
Conspiracy Theory? I'd just like it made clear - you know, explain the
conspiracy theory before you explain the conspiracy, sort of thing.

This is the third attempt I've made at sending this - well, all the
computers that work in the Stats Lab are, of course, being used by
people sending disgusting stuff through E-mail. (Ahem... my computer
doesn't work!)

Dave Chilard

Chilard D said:
THE kennedy assasination conspiracy theory? there's about 100 of them
aren't there?

Basically the kenneddy assasination wasn't just some nutter in a
warehouse window. The assassin:

1> may or may not have been in the warehouse window
2> may or may not have been on the "grassy knoll"
3> may or may not have been employed by government officials who
didn't like kennedy
4> may or may not have actually BEEN a government official
5> may or may not have been one of kenneddy's security guards
6> may or may not have been lee harvey oswald, in fact he might have
just been a convenient scapegoat.
7> may have been space aliens
8> might not have killed kennedy at all - he maybe just wanted to go
into hiding
9> could have involved elvis at some stage

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
After this fight he (Kirkland Lang) can look himself in the face.

Nick W. replied:
> THE kennedy assasination conspiracy theory? there's about 100
> of them aren't there?
If you want by far the most amusing theories on the assassination then
I suggest you read the Illuminatus Trilogy (If your mind can take it!)
I believe the IFIS library has all 3 books, if not I've got a copy of
all 3
books in one volume people are welcome to borrow.

tHE FIRST THING rIDLEY sCOTTDIRECTED WAS THE HOVIS ADVERT WITH THE BOY ON THE BIKE.
...............................................................................
clyth@
In relativity, matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter
how to move. The Heart of Gold told space to get knotted...
D. Adams Life, The Universe and Everything

----------
From: Chilard D
Sent: 12 February 1998 23:37
To: 'chat@'
Subject: RE: Dark Star

Previously, Chris Lyth wrote...
Did you know, Ridley Scott used to work for the BBC? (Such humble
beginnings!) In fact, Terry Nation supposedly asked him to help him
design the Daleks, but he was too busy and so the job fell to Raymond
Cusick instead (the guy at the next easel). Hmm... wasn't there a
Dr.Who story, circa 1974, that had aliens which lay their eggs in human
hosts...?

[Conspiracy theory #19,328]

Dave C.

We've just had a lot of posts on terrorism and nazis.
I guess if Hitler can still spark a load of discussion 50 years later, he can't
be that bad either.

Dominic.

Watch your altitude. It's the first thing people notice about you

Nick Waterman said:
Sorry, make that MAY.

DOH! forgetting the aniversary already!

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
A smile is the sensation of feeling good all over and showing it in one spot.

Previously, Nick Waterman wrote....
So we'd definitely better not show it again, otherwise someone else might
end up getting married? Thank god you warned us before Luke put it on *8).

Chris

---

chris@ #include <stddisclaimer.h> http://www.instituteofcorrection.org.uk/

"So this is really me? A no-style gimbo with teeth druids could use as a
place of worship" - Duaine Dibley (Red Dwarf - "Back to Reality")

My mother went to sleep watching 2001. I'm not sure on my Dad's shoulder though.
...............................................................................
clyth@
In relativity, matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter
how to move. The Heart of Gold told space to get knotted...
D. Adams Life, The Universe and Everything

----------
From: Nick Waterman
Sent: 12 February 1998 13:26
To: c=GB;a=ATTmail;p=MAFF400;o=MAFF;ou1=SMTP;dda:RFC-822=chat(a)ifis.org.uk;
Subject: Re: Dark Star

Dominic Thomas said:
You've met Estelle, so add her to the count too.
Indeed.
Cheers.

To make up for all the negetive things I've said about Dark Star, it's
only fair to point out ONE good thing about it... I DO owe quite a lot
to Dark Star. I can't TRULY hate it 100%...

Many years ago, IFIS thought it would be a good idea to have Dark Star
in the middle of an otherwise pretty good video evening. Estelle, who
until then was "just this girl", was so bored by Dark Star that she
fell asleep on my shoulder, and the rest is history, but the wedding
date is the 29th March, OK?

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
Tourist, Rincewind decided, meant "idiot". -- (Terry Pratchett)

My mother hates 2001. According to her, it starts with a lot of monkeys dancing around a rock. Hmm.
...............................................................................
clyth@
In relativity, matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter
how to move. The Heart of Gold told space to get knotted...
D. Adams Life, The Universe and Everything

----------
From: Dominic Thomas
Sent: 12 February 1998 12:21
To: c=GB;a=ATTmail;p=MAFF400;o=MAFF;ou1=SMTP;dda:RFC-822=chat(a)ifis.org.uk;
Subject: Re: Dark Star
I've had lots of (usually even older than me) sagelike SF afficionados telling
me how great Dark Star is. I think Nick's the only person I've met who's seen
it (a rarity in itself) and doesn't like it.

But I never found it that funny either.
I'd call Red Dward the SF equivalent of Naked Gun.
That made me laugh.

Dark Star is a half-hearted attempt to make a humorous SF film like 2001, but
all it really manages is capturing the unending tedium of space.
(You might think it's boring to walk down to the paper shop...)

So I'm with Nick.
It sucks.

Dominic.

"The universe may be not only queerer than we think,
but queerer than we can think." [Robert Anton Wilson]

On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Chilard D wrote:
Hey, I just said I liked the name. Those were emotional reasons, not
scientific.
Whne I gte tirde my typign suffres.
Depends what angle you look at it, how deep the hole is and how big
whatever it is you are throwing is. But if you want a scientific reason
for the name of the black hole, think of the representations of space you
see in documentaries, where space is shown as a rubber-like sheet and the
gravity distortions are shown as distortions on the surface. This is a
simplification of how our universe would look in 4-space if we could see
it. See the black hole. It is, indeed, a great hole. So deep you can't see
the bottom. With exponentially curving sides...
But that's how gravity works if you look at it in the way I mentioned
above.
Hell, I'm only scrabbling together what I can to make a half convincing
scientific argument. It was initially an emotional statement. Sometimes
scientific accuracy has to give way to emotion. We are human after all
(Up, down, strange, charmed, truth and beauty...)

Anyway, dark star brings to mind the idea of a small star that didn't
quite make it. Angry and alone and impotent. Unlike the ravaging beast
that is a hungry black hole...
No. A supermassive black hole distorts space so much that (in theory) new
dimensions appear from it. They are all at right angles to our own, and
define a new universe.
Oh, and it has to be a supermassive black hole, because everything has a
threshold. Even the amount you have to bend space before it breaks.
*---------------------------------------------*
| IVE SEEN THE FU *---------------------------*
| S T |
| R U |
| UCER STI DNA ER |
*-----------------*

O _____________
/ \ /3
o / X BAD \ / 3
< Fish X 3
. \__ TRIP / \ 3
/____________/ \3

Previously, Ben wrote (about Black Holes)...
Emotions are not logical.
I kown teh fleeing.
Okey-dokey. I just thought it was a *huge* over-simplification, but I
suppose it's valid. It's just that I always perceived films like The
Black Hole (I have that on video as well... no? Okay then!) were
utterly wrong for having matter swirling around black holes like filthy
water down a plughole - black holes are three-dimensional things, actual
masses!
Ah, but surely such a "small star that didn't quite make it" would be
very angry, bitter etc. and would do the celestial equivalent of running
rampant with a sawn-off shotgun? Anyway, failed stars (like Jupiter,
possibly) at least reflect light, so they can be seen as more than an
absence of something.

Dark Star sounds much cooler - calling it a "black hole" is just like
the media calling that long-necked dinosaur "brontosaurus" when it's
technically called "apatosaurus", ie. just so the common person will
know what they're on about. Being *slightly* esoteric is better than
dumbing it down to moron's level, in my opinion. But I don't mind
people saying "black hole", except for all the connotations (see
previous postings).
What happens when space breaks? Does reality shatter into a million
pieces? Or do you just get some weird space-folding effect, which means
planets are thrown out of orbit, galaxies collapse in on themselves, and
suddenly your Aunt Mabel from Australia turns up on your doorstep
completely out of the blue?

Dave

On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Chilard D wrote:
Hey, we're spiralling into the sun like filthy water...
But they're dark. Compared to other stars.
No, that's what happens when reality breaks (When the statistics that
gouvern our universe are skewed by some external force, I suppose.)
Totally different thing

Ben

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Previously, Ben Unknown-surname wrote...
Well, if you're just gonna get sarky...
Oh Gawd, here we go - picking holes just for the sake of it. Actually,
isn't Jupiter a natural source of radio waves or something? Or did I
just think that up?
Answer the question, dammit!

Dave

Chilard D said:
Yes. Just about ANYTHING with a temperature above absolute zero emits
radiation SOMEWHERE in the electromagnetic spectrum, although
admittedly jupiter gives off quite a lot in some particularly
easy-to-observe parts of the radio spectrum.

---

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
Forenoon, n. The latter part of the night. Vulgar.

On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Chilard D wrote:
I'M picking holes just for the sake of it? ME??? Jesus. Glass houses and
all that. The pot and the kettle with the blackness and the thing and the
people. Mrrrr.
Many many things are a natural source of radio waves. Even you. Oh,
yes. Short range, low amplitude, yes, but they're there. One of the
planets in our solar system would be a star if it were a lot bigger. If
it's mass were large enough to compress the gasses it's made out of and
cause fusion. It's a failed star that didn't quite make it. I guess you
could call it a dark star...
<snipety snip snip>
I already told you, it splurges out into a few new dimensions and creates
a new universe. According to some physisists, anyway. Too many sibilants.


Ben (Dunkley, as you seem so interested in my second name.)

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Previously, Ben Dunkley said...
I think he's missing the irony here and taking things a little too
personally... anyway, black things do absorb light (rather than
re-emitting the energy as a certain wavelength of light, which is what
colourful things do) - so why don't we call them Black Kettles, then?
Huh?!?

Incidentally, I now see why black holes or whatever have that matter
swirling around them - Andrew tells me it's an "accretionary disc",
because basically the matter's swirling around it in 2 dimensions.
Good, I'm so glad we got that one sorted out...
But Jupiter isn't dark! In fact, it isn't even black! Basically, it
doesn't absorb anywhere near as much light as a black hole (ie. less
than 100%). Perhaps "dud star" (as with "dud match") would be better.
As you do.
Then let's rename physisisisisicists as well as black holes! Right!
Can anyone think up a new name for them?
Well, I was getting fed up always being called by my surname, Dunk.

Incidentally, are you coming to IFIS tonight? I've met just about
everyone else in person except for you (and they were all out for my
blood just over the Americans thing!).

Dave C. (as opposed to D.Chilard)

On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Chilard D wrote:
Hey, I'm just playing along. I'm not actually offended, just pretending to
be. You're confused 'cause you can't hear my tone of voice over the net.

I was offended by the American thing though.
Well, to make anything out of normal matter (not a singularity) that
doesn't reflect light is a complex task involving strange maths and angles
and stuff. Basically, a complex hole is cut in a light absorbing material,
the dimensions and angles of which cause any light entering it to reflect
around inside it eternally without being able to get out. Of course, you'd
have to keep it in a very cold fridge (about absolute zero) to stop it
radiating infra red. And make sure there are no radioactive isotopes
accidentally caught in it (Those things get everywhere...)

Ever seen a kettle like that?
Yeah, it's like a planet orbiting the sun.
Hey, it's darker than a star, and made of the same stuff, so it's a dark
star. My point being that 'dark star' is not a good description of a black
hole. Dark is relative, black is absolute. And there is very little in the
universe as absolute as the darkness of a black hole. I guess.
Hey, it's got a lot of squashed up matter to get rid of. Imagine it as
something on the rubber sheet of space/time that's so heavy that the
rubber tears.
You wanted to rename black holes, mate. Not me.
I don't call you that. My mail program does. Most of the time I don't care
who I'm replying to, the information is the important thing.
I might pop in to give you a slap, yeah. Don't hold your breath though.

Ben

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Previously, Ben said...
I can hear you shouting at your monitor, though... (or is that just
everyone in IFIS in unison?)
Yes, it was quite wrong of me to stand against racism like that... but
seriously, I didn't mean to slag off the English *quite* so badly - just
to remind some English people that we're not ones to talk so
high-and-mighty in some respects. It was a silly thing to do and I
shall never stand for what is right again. (Really, though, being
racist isn't just calling a black man "nigger" - it's being horrid to
any race just because they are another race, regardless of colour!
Sorry, I shall now step down from my soap box...)
Well, the kettle in our student house takes decades to heat anything up
(Luke would vouch for this, if it wasn't for the fact that he hates
science and all it stands for and therefore isn't reading this), so I
suppose it's part of the way there... (Don't anyone bother writing in
just to say "oh, you need to de-scale your kettle, and here's how to do
it..."!)
The impression I always got was that it was then swirling "down" the
plughole, which of course doesn't happen. Some sci-fi may give the
impression that a black hole is a 2-D hole in space (ie. invisible from
the side but a big black circle from the front, which you go through
rather than into), and I just wanted it clear that that's complete
pants! Pity that The Black Hole seemed to indicate that from some of
its effects (probe ship diving into whirlpool and all that), but I don't
care - if people want to see it, I shall put it on!
Okey-dokey. I just think "dark star" sounds good, and they said it in
the original Star Trek once (the one where they travel back in time -
"Tomorrow Is Yesterday", for all those in the know). "Black star"
sounds too much like a kids' cartoon film I remember from many years
ago, though. Besides, there's degrees of black - glossy, matt, etc...

You say "very little" - is there something as absolute? (The
selfishness of Bill Gates, perchance? Oh, come on, hasn't he suffered
eno... no!)
Terry Pratchett would say "like a bowling ball on the incontinence
blanket of the Universe", or words to that effect.
Oh, okay then. I wasn't trying to accuse you solely, though (subtle
hint).

I use Exchange, which does virtually nothing whatsoever to assist in any
way (I have to write out the headers, you may have noticed), so I don't
see why you should have it easy, chief!
I believe Reeves and Mortimer said it best: "Ewwwwww!" [hold up handbag]

Come on, man, mellow out! Take it easy! Oh no, am I quoting Dark Star
here... (and could you please show this film to me and a tall blonde
single woman, judging from recent comments? Like the word
"Supercalifragilistic-expialidocious" (sp?!) - "But use it with the
greatest care, As it could change your life: One day I said it to me
girl, And now me girl's me wife!" Sorry, we sang it in school...)

David Chilard

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Chilard D wrote:
You were being racist against the English. That's not just wrong, that's
quite silly.
But America? Pick some better example next time.
I'm not horrid (Do people still actually use that word?) to Americans. I
just don't like the country. Some of my best mates.... no, I won't say it.

<snip>
Imagine time as up/down. I find that helps.
Hey, there's only so much budget in B-movies. But lilke I said before,
supermassive black holes (Like you'd get at the centre of a galaxy) might
actually be doorways to other universes. For some reason, the greater size
means the gravity doesn't 'spaghettify' you on the way in. (I saw this on
a documentary. The voiceover man said, in a dramatic documentary voice,
'This time, there is no spaghetti.' I laughed until I stopped.)
Who said anything about 'black star'?
No, they're textures. (Doh!)
Remember, always. We live in a universe without absolutes. Remember
Hawking radiation? And supermassive black holes have big streamers of
energy and matter erupting from their poles. According to the same
documentary. Still, I shouldn't take it too seriously. They explained the
effect of a singularity on space/time using the rubber sheet analogue I
talked about before, only Homer Simpson was walking around it. Looks like
it came from a real episode of the Simpsons, too... Anyone seen it?
(Amusing bit: Homer trips over a time cone, and throws it into the
singularity ('Take that coney'). It expands massively. 'Ohhw... I wish I'd
read that book by that wheelchair guy')
Hey, get a better mail proggy then.
Now who can't take a joke?

<Wet dream and mary poppins gumph snipped>

Ben.

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