access to the library

Well, its been quiet for a bit, and _maybe_ the Union are making progress
towards getting our shelves: perhaps a committee member can tell us :-)

Meanwhile, I spoke to Kevin last Thursday about the possibility of getting
access to the library briefly for a book-lending session. I personally would
be very keen for this to happen. He seemed to think it might be possible. Of
course, to do this well, we need several things:

Notice of when and where this could be done.

Someone willing to get a selection of books, bring them along and take them
back afterwards. I guess this would have to be done on a "per box
selection", as otherwise it would be too hard to organize. However, I
personally want one particular book out of the library, and therefore
wonder: are the boxes alphabetically organized, such that we could have an
A-D day, a E-J day, a K-O day, a P-T day, a U-Z day, or the like.

A list of current memebers.

Someone to keep track of what is taken out, take and return deposits and
ensure books are returned.

I am happy to help with all of this. Personally, I am tied up all weekend of
the 9th-10th. The weekend after, I will probably be available, although
certainly Richard will be busy, and Simon will (he hopes) be occupied. If we
are to spend a while trying to get things sorted, that would therefore
probably be good for me! After that, Saturdays (and Sunday mornings at a
pinch) are free. During the week, I am around in college on Wednesday
7-11pm, so I could be available for a shortish period before. I _could_ be
available during the day. Looking ahead the evening of the 15/22/29 are also
all not taken _yet_.

It seems also, that what we need for all this is a proper lending system,
starting with a current booklist, added to the Web-site. I gather that with
the books is a complete list of the books stored in the Union. If I could
take that away, we could scan it in, and put it on the computer.

Eventually, it would be good if people could reserve books, and use the
computer system to keep track of loans, etc cetera. Though I know little
about writing Web pages, I would find a task like that interesting, and with
some help from Richard and Simon, we might be able to get at least something
going. Meanwhile, I heard rumours that Nick was going to take over running
the IFIS Web-pages: is this true, and if so what is the address?

Jenny Gould

---
jenny@

"Share and Enjoy"
-Marketing Division, Sirius Cybernetics Corporation

(The above opinions do not represent a policy statement for or on behalf of
One Chip Solutions)

Jenny pointed out that my private reply might interest other people, and
therefore probably belongs on ifis-chat... so this reply will go there,
other points will be welcommed....

Jenny Gould said:
Sounds great.
I think comittee members will have keys and will open the cupboards at
pre-arranged times, or something.
At first people would probably have to email me, and then I update the
list, but hopefully I'd soon be able to set up a system where the
lenders could do this online, probably from a password-protected
"administrators page" where they could click on books and click on
borrowers and cunning things like that. This would obviously be more
complicated to set up than a simple "here's a list of our books" page
though :-)


Nick Waterman, Network Manager, Cimio Ltd. nick@
http://www.noseynick.org/ Team AMIGA! #include <stddisclaimer.h>
There is a red telephone on the desk beside you. Start World War III.
Report at length on its socio-political effects, if any.

I wrote
and lots more....
Is there anyone out there, or has college swallowed you all up? I'm very
keen to get to those books: after all, on the subject of books I thought I
would try that "unreadable" book Daniel mentioned on the basis that it's the
only unread fiction I can lay my hands on right now!

Some feedback from those in charge please. As Richard said:
Yes, we all _know_ we have the Union sabs making it difficult, but Kevin
seemed to think we could get access: so _can_ we, and _when_ ????


Some of the other ideas me and Nick exchanged might be worth replying to in
the long term (?)

Jenny Gould

---
jenny@

"Share and Enjoy"
-Marketing Division, Sirius Cybernetics Corporation

(The above opinions do not represent a policy statement for or on behalf of
One Chip Solutions)

Jenny said, much cutting, quoting completely out of context :->
(See you can quote without reproducing piles of tosh)
That's the problem - Jenny's the only one that is.

Some of us don't give a toss about the books full stop. "Let em rot in the SU"
they say. Reading can enlighten your life Kids, a good thing even when
studying. Although these days the video is
a big alternative draw since it requires less thought power.

Most of the rest of us don't give a toss about a pile of old books by authors
that (mostly) no one else has heard of ! (Unkind, only partially true, (I've
heard of some of the stuff but it is OLD (mostly) nothing under 6 years old ) I
think this is Me, there's very little in that pile of books I'd want to read,
but I'm quite particular about what I read, so others ??????

I mean is ANYBODY reading any of the sort of stuff there within ????

No Discworld books, No Rankin, No Star Wars, no (add name of preffered recent
sci fi author here)

Now I'm going to (vaguely) support what Jenny said. Then say something radical.

Get the books availible ON CAMPUS

BUY SOME NEW BOOKS THAT PEOPLE WILL WANT TO READ !
A current IFIS reading list survey should be undertaken as a matter of urgency
and CONSIDERABLE cash should be ploughed into buying some books.

(Yes Theoric, I know, I'm having a rant)

Philip wrote
If that was really true, then _give_ them to us, and we will look after
them.... No I think not.
On the subject of the current collection being old and crumbly, we have lent
out from our personal book collection books of the sort included in the IFIS
collection. Also, is no-one interested as such books as timeless masters
like Robert Heinlein's "Time enough for Love" and many others bu him, Isaac
Asimov books like the "Foundation" series, or books by Arthur C. Clarke.
Ursula Le Guin's "Earthsea" series and more, the Illuminatus trilogy, Anne
McCaffrey's "Pern" series and more, Zelazny's "Princes of Amber" and more,
Tanith Lee's books, Piers Anthony's books etc cetera. Many of these were
borrowed in the year we had the library: perhaps tastes have changed so much
in a year? Or how about the Ian Banks books, or Orson Scott Card, or the
Larry Niven-inspired "Man-Kzin Wars", ? I'll just go on thinking of
books.... We need to get a book-list on-line and available to memebers so
people can say "Wow, I always _meant to read some more Heinlein/ Zelazny/
etc cetera...

If _you_ want it, say...

We have since lent examples of similar books to current members who want
something to read, and when the library was here, lent numerous books out. I
can certainly think of 14 people straight off who did borrow books whilst we
had them,
That is what they are _doing_ (oh so slowly....) putting cupboards with the
books, in the Union_ . How much more "On campus" can you get, or did you
still think the books were at our place?
Yes, I agree!!!! IFIS bought and lent out new books for the last two years,
and those books were heavily in demand from the few who were involved in
wanting, buying, and borrowing books. It is true that the people were
probably all friends and aquaintances of mine; it is difficult to deal with
the indifference of complete strangers. Having the books here was not
_ideal_, as it probably put off shy students who did not know us, but it was
better than them being in storage. Now, with access to the Web, and some
chance of a decent loans system, it will be easier to show people what books
_are_ in the library, and get people involved in a more society-wide
selection of new books. I think that would be excellent: after all, in case
no-one noticed (!), I feel passionately about how sad it is that the books
have languished for so many years, and ranted for a good couple of years to
try and get them back, and new books bought. I can also think of a goodly
number more of people who would, for examplem have borrowed the Amber series
in the year before, if IFIS had managed to buy them. Instead, as no books
were purchased, we borrowed Paul Watson's set (I think).
Agreed. Agreed**1000000. I cannot express how much I agree with this.
Please, please can those who have authority to do so organize access to the
books in the Union; I have offered to help, with no response (as of yet).
Then we can go and buy some more. We spent what remained of our theoric
after it was spent on the magazine on books for the last two years. There is
also a goodly social fund yet to spend, which gets carried forwards each
year (around 3-4 hundred pounds, I believe). I know it was saved up in case
we had to spend it on the cupboards in the Union, but now they are paying
for that, we can blow it all on books. I am yet again happy to help drive
out to Sign of the Unicorn to buy new books, or the like; lists of what
members want is an excellent idea; post here and the committee will know
what at least those who use e-mail want. Then someone can go down the pub
and collect more titles. If the old books ever become available, people can
take more requests then. (Please don't bother to ask if you don't intend to
actually _borrow_ the books! )


Jenny Gould

---
jenny@

"Share and Enjoy"
-Marketing Division, Sirius Cybernetics Corporation

(The above opinions do not represent a policy statement for or on behalf of
One Chip Solutions)

Philip wrote
Guess again.

While the library was here, many people came around to borrow books, and
since we knew many of the authors, we were able to direct people at the
material that they might like. It obviously worked - they came back for
more.


[...]
What you forgot to do is describe the hideous transformation that happens to
a novel when it passes that magic six-year mark. Not all of us understand
this phenomenom. Has language changed so much in six years? Has there been
some giant evolutionary stride in the human condition that causes all
literature older than five years to appear banal, trivial and sad?

I think we should be told.
Pratchett is not especially good (but much improved for Gaiman's gravitas)
and the Discworld ceased to be funny after about the third book, Rankin is
crap, Star Wars is OK. In my oh-so humble opinion, of course.
Bram Stoker, Jules Verne, H G Wells, Aldous Huxley, J R R Tolkien. Oh,
sorry, they're all dead. Recent? Oh. Oh dear. Wait - I've heard that
Ursula LeGuin is still writing. Will that do?

By the way, you may have noticed that many well-known or popular SF films
are based on old SF, not modern SF: "Total Recall" comes from "We Can
Remember it for You Wholesale"; "Blade Runner" from "Do Androids Dream of
Electric Sheep"; "2001: A Space Oddysey" from "The Sentinel"; or, if you
want to be bang up to date, as it were, "Crash" from a short story by J G
Ballard, another of those ancient authors. Harlan Ellison (another of those
ancient authors) is now an key part of the "Babylon-5" team. But then I
have an original copy of "The High Frontier" by Gerald K O'Neill - without
which Babylon-5 would not be possible.

The other game that a knowledge of F&SF that stretches back further than
five years provides is the fun of "spot the plagiarism". Almost all the
original Star Trek episodes can be traced back to various SF short stories:
I have also seen this phenomenom in "Babylon-5", "The X Files" and lots of
other places.

SF did not come forth from the void five years ago. SF is older than you
are, young man. And, if you want the scandalous truth, even older than me.
But then, so's Shakespeare.


Simon

---
"This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind" -Ecclesiastes 4:16

simon@ | Not affiliated to any religion
simon@ | Not affiliated to any politics
H (+44/0)1784 431998 | Not affiliated to any ideology
W (+44/0)1784 434568 (GMT/BST) | What does that make me?

"I have been asked to point out, as if you couldn't guess, that my rantings
are not the opinions of One Chip Solutions. So now you know, don't you..?"

Simon Wrote:
Well it does seem that way sometimes. She does appear like someone on a
personal crusade to liberate the books from the clutches of the evil SU.
(Humour. No Offence meant Jenny. But that is how it appears)

Good. 2 peopel thus far are interested, even if they are both ex students
living in the same house which has been sundered from the massive book
collection it once held. If anyone else is do let me know so I can quote an
accurate figure in an article I'm writing for the magazine. If you are a
current student who is interested in the library then I'd especialy like to
here from you.

Keep this up people and we may all be roused from our apathetic slumber.
Nothing like a good peice of flame bait to get people reaching for their
keyboards. :-)

****Lots of stuff cut****

I was not saying that sci fi literature came into existance 6 years ago, I was
infering that New stuff is less lightly to have been read, and therefore more
lightly to be borrowed more often than old stuff. Not slagging off the old
stuff at all. Just completed a re-read of Lord of the Rings myself. Fine
Material. But I _DID_ mean that some of the books in the IFIS library is a
trifle obscure.

And the pt about books on Campus. I feel this is important, Students are more
likely to go to Students to borrow things than some weird ex students (Again,
no offence meant, but this is how it does seem to people) There is the
convenience asspect of campus (Yes I know you're only down the road....) to
students, and the fact the Soc., and thus the library, _probably_ _should_ be
being run by the students. (There, I've slipped in my Fave. Topic. See my Up
and coming article in the mag)

Philip

Nearly humour, anyway. About half-way there, I would suggest.
I am sure that Jenny can furnish you with borrowing records for the library,
at the point when it was still available. I am sure you will see that far
more students borrowed books during this period than during the last year.

By the way, what did you do about the library when you held a committee
post?
Or other, heavier, blunt instruments.
You have read stuff by authors you have never heard of?
Which is good. Because if I want to read something, I'd rather read
something I'd not already read. One of the bad sides of getting Pratchett
is that, most likely, everyone (who wants to) has read them already.
The library is convenient at the moment, is it? Convenient for whom?
----
This is an opinion, not a fact. It's also an opinion that suggests that you
believe that you should not be interfering, doesn't it? So what are you
doing now?



Simon

---
"This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind" -Ecclesiastes 4:16

simon@ | Not affiliated to any religion
simon@ | Not affiliated to any politics
H (+44/0)1784 431998 | Not affiliated to any ideology
W (+44/0)1784 434568 (GMT/BST) | What does that make me?

"I have been asked to point out, as if you couldn't guess, that my rantings
are not the opinions of One Chip Solutions. So now you know, don't you..?"

Phil said
Bollox (scuse my french), there are plenty of people who want access to
the library. Their just not as vocal as you are on the mailing list.
Some members don't actually use it at all (shock horror). Why do you
think it's been split into announce and chat?
You've out bollox'd yourself with this comment. For the two years whilst
I was treasurer we did go out and buy books (recent books) about 60 in fact,
each year. Of those 20 were what you would call old books written greater
than 6 years ago. The fact that it's old, and you haven't heard of it
probably means you ain't read it. Previous comittee's weren't stupid
they bought books that they wanted to read because the books were good
fiction.
Well those of us who read, by which I mean more than 4 hours a week, do
in actual fact read this sort of book. Or to put it another way, I for
one do.
There were (and are still a few) discworld novels in the library,
unfortunately they were stolen the last time the books were stored in the
union. I think we bought at least one Rankin last time. (Rankin for those
who are not aware is the american sitcom of sci-fi authors).
I believe we bought the first trilogy of Star Wars books, which were an
avarage read, only really enjoyable because they contained the characters
from the films. We also bought Iain Banks, Clive Barker, Anne Mcaffrey,
Hick & Wiesmann (sp?), Pratchet & Gaimon (sp?), Philip Jose Farmer,
Piers Antony, Roger Zelazny (sadly passed away, but writting right up
until the end) and others.
Wow that's radical. Where do you think the sodding library is at the
moment?
We have, they will.
At last something I can agree with. Though you should bear in mind that
we did for the last two years spend theoric/social on books (about 200
pounds each year). You must be thinking of the year before that :-).

Sorry if I've been a bit personal, I was ranting. It must be said,
however, that I did take it a bit personally being as I put so much
time into buying books, and trying to sort out the library last year.

Later,

---

Adam Hattrell, Support, Cimio Ltd. adam@

When reading this post, and considering replying to it (as indeed I have) I
find myself looking for the hidden camera, or perhaps Jeremy Beadle. Surely
a posting as shallow and blatantly untrue as this one must be based on
jest. Finding none, I have to ask myself whether the poster really is
stupid or just brain dea. Answers on a postcard...
the SU"

Not sure what you mean by "us". Certainly I can think of a dozen people
(who I know) who are very interested in the books being back on line. I've
even had people come up to me during Games Soc evenings to ask where the
books are store. Sadly, I find myself smiling when I'm forced to reply
"Under a pile of chairs in boxes at the back of the Union (with a sign on
the door sayng Beware of the Leopard?)"
Oh dear. I'm not even going to try getting into a debate about whether
video supercedes books as it requires "less thought power", or succumb to a
string of tasteless insults of the type questioning the place of someone in
civilized society who can't even be bothered to read. Must resist...
nnhhhhh......
authors
(I've
old ) I

Presumably you only read books you've heard of? Ever thought of branching
out a little. It's true that most of what we've got is pretty obscure,
based on unknown authors like Adams, Asimov, Anthony, Bear, Chandler, Card,
Clarke, Le Guin, Niven, Harrison, Heinlein, Moorcock, Saberhagen and
Zalazny but give em a chance and who knows, maybe one day they'll become
household names... (we can wish for the same for other *old* creative types
such as Shakespeare and Mozart - overrated amateurs the lot of 'em)
read,

One might therefore question why the hell you joined the Sci-Fi society.
This is a question I've brought up before. If you don't like what's in the
library, and based on the fact that IFIS does very little else (let's be
honest for a moment), what else is there? And personal taste is fair
enough, but I'm sure we've got a few Gor books in there somewhere which
would undoubtedly interest you.
Yes. Science fiction enthusiasts.
recent
No. As I said, science fiction enthusiasts. By the way we do have some
Pratchett, but most of it got nicked by a "fan".
radical.
Gosh - what an idea. Why hadn't anyone thought of it before. Say, it just
might work.
urgency
Again - what an entirely new concept. A misconception which a few people
seem to be labouring under is that volume of whinge is proportional to
effort exerted i.e. unless I complain loudly about how much I'm doing, I'm
obviously not doing anything. This is crap. Over the past few years, a fair
few people have put a lot of effort into trying to sort out IFIS, and the
library in particular. Colin compiled and printed the current book-list. I
certainly don't envy him that task. Recently he also re-audited the books
and I guess that an updated list is around somewhere. Myself, Jenny and
Adam have made more than one trip to buy books (some of which are current -
Nancy Collins? Thought not) as well as try to get people to express book
ideas. I've also converted the booklist into a database format and even
generated web pages with the book list on them (not published). The point
is that we haven't made a song and dance about it so it get's ignored. If
you want some books bought then ask for them simple. On each of the
occasions we've gone to buy books we have bought *all* requested titles.
This is because people very rarely ask for stuff so we end up getting what
we like on the basis that at least someone will read it (I doubt that
asking for all of Discworld will be met with approval).
Well hey - so am I. I would guess that this posting of yours will generate
a fair few angry responses. Good. Some people are very keen to see that an
asset such as the library does not go wasted. People have put time, effort
and their own money into trying to make it available for everyone who's
interested (which patently doesn't include you) and although most of them
don't seek praise (merely a library) it's a bit demoralising to have some
idiot come up and pipe a load of crap about how they're not really
interested and how it's a rubbish library anyway.

Blimey, isn't this fun.

I do not intend to get involved with this flame war at all. I'll admit I
find I only rarely have time to read books these days, let alone books
from the IFIS library, but I'm still not happy about phil's idea of
letting them rot.

Anyway, I said I didn't want to get involved. What I DID want to do was
reply to some of Richard's points...

Richard Mines allegedly said:
I intend to add myself to this list ASAP... read on...
PLEASE get me a copy of that list!
Get them to me! ASAP! Like YESTERDAY!

I'm now looking after the IFIS web pages. They're at

http://www.noseynick.org/IFIS/

I've already tidied them up a little, mostly fixing trivial errors and
bringing the mailing-list page up to date. The next thing I'd like to do
is add some stuff about the library. A booklist would be VERY MUCH
APPRECIATED INDEED. I also have ideas for some fairly simple way of
keeping track of who's borrowing what, but the exact details of this
would have to be sorted out with whoever has the keys to this small
cupboard we allegedly have in the SU. Apart from that I'll also
implement a way of adding, on-line, suggestions for new books, which
might make it easier for us to buy the books that people WANT.
[blah blah]
I hope Phil wasn't intending to go to the pub tonight. I have a feeling
this might be a matter of life and death ;-)

---

Nick Waterman, Network Manager, Cimio Ltd.
nick@ nick@ G7RZQ @ GB7DEO.#32.GBR.EU
http://www.noseynick.org/ #include <disclaimer> Team AMIGA!
"You fixed the telly then?" "Yup, look...." >*B*A*N*G*<

Nick wrote:
As some people will already have noticed, all Phil has to do is make sure
he's out of the pub by 10:30, when we all get back from Aikido.

Just kidding, of course. But on a more serious note, if people want to
catch us down the pub, that is the time to appear.


Simon

---
"This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind" -Ecclesiastes 4:16

simon@ | Not affiliated to any religion
simon@ | Not affiliated to any politics
H (+44/0)1784 431998 | Not affiliated to any ideology
W (+44/0)1784 434568 (GMT/BST) | What does that make me?

"I have been asked to point out, as if you couldn't guess, that my rantings
are not the opinions of One Chip Solutions. So now you know, don't you..?"

Philip privately e-mailed me, Simon, Richard, Adam, juergeng@[], and
Daniel furthur on the subject of the books.

Anyway, he is waiting to hear from the _rest_ of you guys on this subject;
he tells us all this in a _private_ e-mail which we cannot publically quote
from so you can all see the retractions, contradictions or new stupidities
in his arguments. He does not post this so that current commitee and
general students can hear, correct or join in. Quite funny when you consider
he was saying how awful it was that ex-students interfered so much. Even so,
I think it is pathetic to turn this into a _private_ discussion. Afraid we
will all laugh too much, Phil?

Daniel posted (seeming being psychically aware of this post.....)
But why cut it down to an inner circle of all but one ex-students? Oh, and
hi to the student; I don't recognise your address, so I don't know who you
are. We_have_ this chat thing to include everyone who wants it!

Philip talks furthur about the idea that the SU is not accessible. A public
place open all hours of the day, and accessible in the evening with a SU
card is less accessible than a private room which only one student lives and
works in? I think not. Is it not true to say that in general, whilst the
books were in someone's room, lending was only available on one or two
evenings a week? You cannot legally be a member of IFIS without either a
current SU card (which all current students have) or a life SU card (for
graduate life members of the SU), so all members can get access during
reasonable hours. Keys will of course be an issue, but I would expect copies
of these can be distributed amongst the committee. He also talks about the
books being insecure in the SU: they will be kept in a _locking_ cupboard,
Phil. Perhaps you did not _know_ it will be locking? Phil, check your facts
first, and then maybe you can discuss this in public, rather than hiding
your stupid ideas in private e-mail.

He also argues in a contradictory manner that IFIS is made up of members who
are very sad for not joining in with this discussion, _and_ also that it is
perfectly reasonable that the membership is made up of people with a broad
spectrum of interests, and therefore don't give a damn.

Oh, and unfortunately, no, I don't have records of who borrowed what. Nice
idea, but no.

It still seems incredible to suggest the people in this list are sad for not
joining in with this discussion whilst moving it to private e-mail; some
people will not be able to read e-mail every day. Certainly I had to draw
Richard's attention to this, as he is in the house after work and before
going elsewhere not at all Monday and has ~20 minutes Tuesday and Wednesday,
and ~ 40 minutes Thursday.

Have the courage of your convictions, Philip, and keep this public! Or are
you too afraid of making yet more of a fool of yourself. Oh, and I
_accidentally_ e-mailed Phil my last reply, and immediately e-mailed a
follow-up asking him to please forward it back to me or post it on the list.
I'm still waiting. So let us _all_ hear your comments, Philip.

Jenny Gould

---
jenny@

"Share and Enjoy"
-Marketing Division, Sirius Cybernetics Corporation

(The above opinions do not represent a policy statement for or on behalf of
One Chip Solutions)