Von Neumann and the Fermi Paradox (was This and that and B5...) (1998/01/14)

Von Neumann and the Fermi Paradox (was This and that and B5...)

Posted by Dave Barlow on 1998/01/14 11:44

Daniel Celano wrote
On a different note, this pales into trival compared to
the mistake in the latest DS9. They have mines which can replicate
themselves

[Quick attempt at diversionary tactics before a flame war starts up]

Thinking about it this technology (combined with B'elana Torris' smart bomb)
makes for the perfect Von Neumann machine. All the federation have to do is
manufacture a few self-replicating missiles/ships/bombs etc and launch them
at an enemy (The Borg will do). Off go the war machines, defenders
desperately try to blow them up, each weapon that is hit replicates itself
(twice) at the last moment. In next to no time the defenders are overrun by
a multitude of smart bombs and mines. Poof, forget the enemy they don't
stand a chance.

Then all you need is for a virus to be introduced into the programming and
you have the berserker style Universe in next to no time. Which leads to the
next point.

Are you all aware of the so called Fermi Paradox. Stated simply, if highly
advanced ET's existed why have not seen them yet? The argument is that if
FTL travel was possible, and had been developed, that culture could easily
traverse the Galaxy in a short time. They could (this is a
gedanunkexperiment afterall) then find all possible life bearing planets and
monitor/contact them. As we have not had contact, there is no ET, or it just
hasn't reached us.

Anyway, a chap called Erik Max Francis on news:sci.astro proposed a solution
to the Fermi Paradox. His solution was the berserker Solution: another
paranoid civilization develops berserker machines that run around the Galaxy
looking for likely life bearing planets, tags them and reports back. The
Planet is then monitored to see if a technological civilization develops.
Once some criteria is met a berserker probe is despatched to say goodbye to
the Planet. The criteria could easily be broadcasting radio waves or Atomic
weapons being exploded.

Dave "there coming NOW" Barlow

Von Neumann and the Fermi Paradox (was This and that and B5...)

Posted by Chris Turner on 1998/01/14 11:58

Previously, Dave Barlow wrote....
[Snip]

Are you all aware of the so called Fermi Paradox. Stated simply, if highly
advanced ET's existed why have not seen them yet? The argument is that if
FTL travel was possible, and had been developed, that culture could easily
traverse the Galaxy in a short time. They could (this is a
gedanunkexperiment afterall) then find all possible life bearing planets and
monitor/contact them. As we have not had contact, there is no ET, or it just
hasn't reached us.

Think about it though - if you were a highly intelligent species, would you
want to visit? I can well imagine aliens watching and keeping their
tentacles crossed that we wipe ourselves out before we manage proper space
flight *8).

Chris

chris@ #include <stddisclaimer.h> http://www.instituteofcorrection.org.uk/

"So this is really me? A no-style gimbo with teeth druids could use as a
place of worship" - Duaine Dibley (Red Dwarf - "Back to Reality")

Von Neumann and the Fermi Paradox (was This and that and B5...)

Posted by Dave Barlow on 1998/01/14 12:43

Chris Turner <chris@> wrote on 14 January 1998 11:59

Previously, Dave Barlow wrote....
[Snip]

>> As we have not had contact, there is no ET, or it just

hasn't reached us.

The argument goes both ways though. What drives the desire to build and
develop technology in the first place, a desire to explore, investigate and
control your environment. It could therefore be argued that any sufficiently
advanced species, that developed star flight, would be interested in
exploring and analyzing possible life bearing planets. It is this desire
that drove us into space (as well as the Cold War), drives the SETI search,
western europeans to colonise the world, and SF. Again, a sweeping statement
and I am anthropomorphising Aliens plus there are a lot of other
socioeconomic factors involved as to why a culture does somehting, but I
think this is a fair statement.

So, if another culture develops star flight, one of the first things they
are likely to do is go looking for life. Possibly to trade with, possibly to
subjagate and steal resources from or some other reason, but an ET search
would be top of the list somewhere. Certainly I can imagine Humanity doing
this. Also, the resources you want are not likely to be found on lifeless
planets or it may be economically infeasible to acquire those resources. A
nice planet with atmosphere and an existing civilization doing the hard work
for you simplifies matters enormously.

Another argument against the one above is why would the Aliens be so scared
of us they would simply watch us commit racial suicide. If they had star
travel, hi-tech and so on they should be able to take us out with little
difficulty.

This was the gist of the berserker solution, a truly alien race, totally
paranoid and xenophobic enough to want to destroy any life before it is a
threat. This is why we see no life in the Galaxy.

Comments anyone.

Dave "spending too much time on news:alt.alien.visitors again" Barlow

Bring me my Broadsword | http://www.sartar.demon.co.uk
and clear understanding | BBb Bass player extraordinaire

Von Neumann and the Fermi Paradox (was This and that and B5...)

Posted by Ben Dunkley on 1998/01/14 14:31

On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Dave Barlow wrote:

Chris Turner <chris@> wrote on 14 January 1998 11:59

Previously, Dave Barlow wrote....
[Snip]

As we have not had contact, there is no ET, or it just
hasn't reached us.

<snip>

Comments anyone.

It is quite reasonable, I think, to believe that all life in the universe
is similar to ours in some key ways. If you believe in evolution, and
you'd be a fool not to, you already know that lifeforms develop by using
any means at their disposal to be successful breeders. This goes to
explain why humans have such a mishmash of 'good' and 'evil' traits...
They're what were successful at the time. Any alien race is going to be
just as curious as us - without curiosity there is no science.

So why believe that an alien race will be benevolent, or totally war
obsessed, or in some way morally superior to us? For example, we don't
need to become 'better' to develop space travel and FTL... We're cutious
enough, and if, for example, mining other planets becomes economically
viable there will be billions pumped into r&d. It's likely that any alien
race we encounter will be just as messed up as we are, and I find this far
more frightening than any other hypothesis.

For example, can you name a single technology that hasn't caused some side
effect that has maimed, crippled, or caused desease within people,
animals, or the biosphere in general? No... And if these guys exist,
they're playing with cosmic forces (excuse the terminology) we can't yet
quite imagine properly. Just think what damage they could be doing to the
so called fabric of space time... Perhaps. Or maybe their power source
emits some hitherto unknown radiation? Who knows? (It's all getting a bit
star trek, isn't it?)

What if FTL travel causes some kind of ripple in space that makes nearby
stars go nova?

Anyway, there are so many stars and planets around that I can't imagine
ours is anything special, and besides, if this race is doing a methodical
or even random search, their chances of finding us are small indeed.

Just some thoughts...

Ben.

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Von Neumann and the Fermi Paradox (was This and that and B5...)

Posted by Nick Waterman on 1998/01/14 12:15

Dave Barlow said:

[Quick attempt at diversionary tactics before a flame war starts up]

Good idea, but you have to be careful you don't just start ANOTHER
flame-war next to the first one! :-)

Are you all aware of the so called Fermi Paradox. Stated simply, if highly
advanced ET's existed why have not seen them yet?

We have, haven't we?

Planet is then monitored to see if a technological civilization develops.
Once some criteria is met a berserker probe is despatched to say goodbye to
the Planet. The criteria could easily be broadcasting radio waves or Atomic
weapons being exploded.

Nah. atomic weapons being detonated is a sure sign that we can be
ignored - we're bound to wipe ourselves out pretty soon.

Nick Waterman. Network Consultant / Sysadmin - LEOnet
Beating tomorrow's technology into submission.
nick-sig@ Team *AMIGA*!
Don't you feel more like you do now than you did when you came in?